Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,434 Location: Paris, France
Don't feed the poor. « Thread Started on Sept 20, 2011, 1:07pm »
Since 1987, the agricultural branch of the EU has financed a food programme for the poor, using mostly agricultural surplus items which would otherwise be destroyed. 19 of the 27 EU countries use this programme for 240 different NGOs. Italy, Poland and France are the biggest users of these supplies. The programme helps to feed more than 13 million people throughout Europe.
Unfortunately, in the past two years the stocks became quite low and it was necessary to buy some items for the programme. Well, Germany filed a lawsuit, saying that if there is no surplus, it is illegal to keep funding the programme. The European Court of Justice in Luxembourg ruled in Germany's favour. With some maneuvering, it was able to save the programme for 2012 and 2013, but six countries do not want to feed the poor anymore: Germany, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Czech Republic, Denmark and Sweden.
These countries prefer to give their money to the banking system, because the poor are of no importance.
Perhaps they can be persuaded to finance a programme to cut more notches in the belts of the poor as they continue to tighten them.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,288 Location: Mexico
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #1 on Sept 20, 2011, 3:17pm »
I can understand the logic of questioning what to do when there is insufficient surplus to keep the program going. After all, if the whole concept was to distribute surplus, what should happen if there is no surplus? If the program also involves shared funding, each country is right to expect to know what the charge will be, for purposes of budgeting.
On the face of it, "don't want to feed the poor anymore" sounds dreadful. But is that the whole story? I looked up Common Agricultural Policy for the EU, and found this outdated information: http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/markets/freefood/back/index_en.htm, which I'm including because of its useful historical background.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,548 Location: Montréal
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #2 on Sept 20, 2011, 3:18pm »
Oddly, most of those countries are among the wealthiest in the EU.
Perhaps the new Danish government might have a slightly different outlook, though Scandinavians tend to Euro-scepticism.
Obviously some simply don't care, but I also feel that those in power simply fail to grasp how much want there is even in affluent countries. Because most poor people are NOT street beggars. Many do at least some paid work - often precarious nowadays (my own work is, though of course when I do work it is better-paid), and others are incapable of working due to age (very old or very young) or physical and psychological disabilities.
Sure, there are lazy layabout poor, but there are lazy layabouts in all classes of society.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,434 Location: Paris, France
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #3 on Sept 20, 2011, 4:37pm »
Many of the poor in Europe are also non Europeans.
The article that I was reading today basically said that these countries prefer to feed their own poor. These crisis years are times of selfishness. Obviously the rich countries can afford to help feed the poor of Greece, for example -- but can Greece afford to do so if the others don't want to?
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,288 Location: Mexico
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #4 on Sept 20, 2011, 4:57pm »
That is the source of my confusion. From what I was able to understand, each country, whether rich or poor, draws from the fund and distributes the monies among various ngos and charities to serve that particular country. However, before my eyes glazed over, I did get the impression that the CAP was maybe overly heavy on bureaucracy. Perhaps the countries which wish to pull out of the program are not going to abandon the poor, but are no longer in favor of how the EU manages the program.
Of course that raises the question of what happens to the poor of countries in need, if the wealthier countries don't throw some aid their way.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,434 Location: Paris, France
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #5 on Sept 20, 2011, 5:12pm »
The UK has always believed that the CAP was cheating it. That was the whole deal of Margaret Thatcher and "I want my money back!" The fact that France has always received the most money from the CAP has not helped its relations with the UK (however, France is the biggest agricultural producer of the EU and gives back as much as it gets in funds). That is one of the "behind the scenes" elements of the current acrimony.
People who believe that bureaucracy can be eliminated are delusional.
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #12 on Sept 20, 2011, 7:30pm »
Actually the poor perform a useful function in even an advanced prosperous culture. They are there to depress wage, lower general expectations and demoralize the middle classes by making it clear that structural poverty is an acceptable state of affairs and if those that might want to challenge the authority of the powerful act out they have a place to put them besides in jail where they cannot even count on meals or a bed.
Imagine trying to ruthlessly rule a society with no poor. I don't think it would work.
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #14 on Sept 20, 2011, 8:42pm »
All the millions of pounds/euros spent each year on the poor. Wouldn't it be more economic to just put the fit ones in the Army? They'd get three meals a day, a roof over their heads and keep them out of trouble. Those not fit could still be in the Army but used for support services like catering, cleaning the toilets etc. Not only would it save vast amounts of money (the bureaucracy is already there anyway to run the Forces, for instance) you could get something useful out of them instead of tripping over them in city centre doorways.
The only problem would be what to do with the dogs they always seem to have.
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #16 on Sept 21, 2011, 4:23am »
Well that's two problems they wont have then. Not only will the druggies be cured because they just wont have much access to them, the thieving kids wont have any where to hide, they'll be caught and some sense thrashed into them.
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #17 on Sept 21, 2011, 4:39pm »
Another thought - all the poor in Europe get, what, several pounds/euros a day in benefits of one sort or another? Wouldn't it be cheaper to at least halve their money and buy them a one way ticket to India? Why?
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,434 Location: Paris, France
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #18 on Sept 21, 2011, 5:27pm »
That reminds me of when there was an absolutely huge artichoke surplus one year in France, and the farmers were destroying massive mountains of artichokes to the dismay of everybody who hates waste. I think this was the same year as the giant Ethiopian famine. It was necessary to point out that there was really no way to export and feed artichokes to people who have never even seen one and who would not even believe that such a thing was edible.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,548 Location: Montréal
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #19 on Sept 22, 2011, 12:13am »
They aren't very calorie dense either. They do contain vitamins and some medicinal properties - they are supposed to be a big help for people with various forms of arthritis, and certainly can't hurt, but would be useless in a famine situation.
Pity they couldn't freeze or can them though.
European poor people, even if they work (and I must remind all that a majority of poor people of working age do work at least to some extent) would be utterly useless in Indian society. They would simply die, as they would not enjoy the social/family support that allows Indian villagers to survive in lieu of rupees.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,288 Location: Mexico
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #23 on Sept 22, 2011, 2:09pm »
I think the idea of paying farmers not to grow certain crops was to prevent gluts on the market and to sustain farmers so they'd keep farming. On the one hand, it makes total sense, but also seems the kind of scheme that would be hard to keep on course.
There may be, or at least should be, research & development on ways of turning specialty crops such as artichokes into practical foods. I guess that's how corn got where it is in terms of being a major crop. We get corn by-products in our diets whether we want them or not. By the same token, it seems that excess or culled artichokes, for instance, could be used as a component in a high-nutrition pasta or food bar. That's the kind of item that might have commercial value, could be part of govt help programs or school menus, and a practical thing to send to famine areas & the like.
I think the idea of paying farmers not to grow certain crops was to prevent gluts on the market and to sustain farmers so they'd keep farming. On the one hand, it makes total sense, but also seems the kind of scheme that would be hard to keep on course.
There may be, or at least should be, research & development on ways of turning specialty crops such as artichokes into practical foods. I guess that's how corn got where it is in terms of being a major crop. We get corn by-products in our diets whether we want them or not. By the same token, it seems that excess or culled artichokes, for instance, could be used as a component in a high-nutrition pasta or food bar. That's the kind of item that might have commercial value, could be part of govt help programs or school menus, and a practical thing to send to famine areas & the like.
It wouldn't have been so bad if it had been certain crops but it was any crops. Farmers were actually paid NOT to produce.
And as sure as eggs are eggs surpluses are followed by deficits.
I was listening to a programme the other day that said within 10 years we would all be eating insects - although we might not recognise them as such. A cheap and efficient source of protein apparently.
Locust steak anybody? A side order of mealworms perhaps?
Re: Don't feed the poor. « Reply #27 on Sept 22, 2011, 2:41pm »
The idea to pay farmers not to produce something so that they can retain the capacity to grow it in the future (rather than stopping farming altogether) is a good one. In theory.
But with all schemes like this there is an element in the equation that people in power seem to overlook. The human factor. If you pay people benefits to such a sum that they have no incentive to work, or look for it, and then double the blow by taxing low incomes so that it is more economically viable for them to stay at home watching Neighbours and Jeremy Kyle - then they'll do bugger all. It's the same when you pay farmers not to produce something. They'll be paid to such a degree that they realise with all the hard work of actually growing a crop they are not much worse off financially if they don't bother. Why work if they get compensated enough not to.
Hence, in my opinion, when you have a good idea the best way to cock it up is to give it to humans to implement it.
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