Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 1,072 Location: Southern California
Preconceived Culinary Notions « Thread Started on Dec 29, 2009, 2:02am »
Prompted by comments in several threads about US eating habits or tastes, I thought perhaps a thread about our perceptions of other countries’ tastes might be appropriate in order to avoid derailing other worthy threads. My personal issues have to do with, among others, degrading yellow mustard (sorry fumobici!), no bananas in a tortilla (sorry Don Cuevas!) and k2’s recent impression that Americans don’t eat lentils.
I have two issues here. One, is when someone dismisses a food as somehow not “authentic.” I’m honestly not sure what that means (and I’m not picking on fumobici at all here). In the case of yellow mustard – it is, in fact, real mustard. Mustard seed, vinegar, water and turmeric. That’s all. And those same ingredients are found in almost any other mustard from any other country on the planet. It is still mustard – one which has its place in certain, but not all dishes.
In k2’s comment about lentils, he referenced the fact that he never saw lentils at Denny’s or Howard Johnson’s menus. My response was that those restaurants were not indicative of US palates. He responded that he felt they went for the “middle of the road.” His conclusion, I assume, is that middle of the road is the baseline for all American eating habits. All I can say is: the road is much wider than you think.
And Don Cuevas couldn’t fathom a banana in a tortilla. (It’s OK, but I wish you would try it first.)
When I think about US tastes in food, I can’t define it as one experience. There are so many regional differences, influenced by local agriculture and farming as well as the movement of people from other countries, that I feel it’s a bit unfair to say that “most Americans don’t eat *fill in the blank.*
I was fortunate to spend most of my growing up years in a fairly cosmopolitan US city, straddling the north and south Atlantic states, and raised by parents from 2 separate countries, so perhaps I have a different formative food background. But I was always taught to have an open mind about food and not to dismiss anything unless I had actually tasted it first.
I’ll end my own rant now but am sincerely interested in others’ thoughts or opinions. And thread drift is allowed and encouraged here.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,549 Location: Montréal
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #1 on Dec 29, 2009, 2:15am »
As long as we are allowed to dislike yellow mustard! (I never said it was "non-authentic", whatever that means). And cripes does it stain! - but that is true of anything containing turmeric, including the most authentic of curries and Indian pickles, or the Anglo-Indian ones, authentic in their own fusiony way. Turmeric is a potent anti-carcinogen by the way, so it should not be dismissed outright. But I do prefer the dijon type.
This should not be restricted to the US, though. Some of the preconceived notions I've seen of French or Italian food are hilarious indeed.
If we are allowed a bit of thread drift outside the ever-fertile topic of food (only sex attracts anything near the same level of interest, along with a few popular sports) I remember some of the hilarious misconceptions not only Italians but even French (who have more contact with us) have about "Canada" or "Québec". One darling young man from the French Alps was imagining us in The Great Outdoors with the forest outside our windows.
Joined: Aug 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 1,072 Location: Southern California
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #2 on Dec 29, 2009, 2:25am »
This a "free-love or -hate" thread, lagatta, so you are free to hate something after you've at least tried it. (And I agree with you on the pesky staining properties of yellow mustard )
And while inspired by, this is most certainly not restricted to the US. I had some preconceived notions shattered on visits to Montréal, Paris and London in recent years. Some good and some not so good.
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #3 on Dec 29, 2009, 2:36am »
I actually can walk two blocks then walk through around fifty miles of forest crossing no paved roads, then cross another couple of two lane paved roads followed by at least 100 miles of primeval forest and mountain wilderness. But then again, I'm practically in Canadia
I'm just dragging threads off-topic tonight aren't I?
Hard to generalize about American cookery though there's such a plethora of influences and regional variations but surely the best known stuff is that which is actually exported and marketed to the world as American- the usual fast food fare, hamburgers, hotdogs, Coca-Cola and KFC or perhaps less cliched, BBQ and other regional stuff like NE or NW seafood, Tex-Mex, Midwestern meat, corn and potatoes or typically Southern fare.
My name really isn't Don, but I used to be anónimo.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 2,952 Location: Michoacán, México
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #5 on Dec 29, 2009, 3:34am »
I don't "hate" bananas in flour tortillas. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes. "Cada loca con su tema." But, I can imagine, in my mind's palate, how I would like or dislike that. While it doesn't sound ghastly, I don't believe it's something I'd really like. Just as I dislike coconut milk/cream in food. I know a lot of people like that, and that's great. Just not for me. I believe that over the years I've had an open mind for trying new foods, but as I get older, my tastes are locking in more. There is much, much "authentic" Mexican food that I quite dislike, and some that I'm crazy about.
Now, on the other hand, I commonly eat hot breakfast cereal with boiled egg quarters and spicy Asian or Mexican condiments. I don't expect that everyone would enjoy it if they tried it, and I don't push it.
The last comment I'd like to make is that it's been a tradition with some of us, myself included, who may have come from the TT Get Stuffed Branch in its wild and crazy heyday, that we sometimes make ourageous statements for exaggerated effect. That doesn't mean we don't like "you" or disrespect your opinion.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,575 Location: Paris, France
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #6 on Dec 29, 2009, 3:53pm »
You should have seen how a German got flamed on another website for saying that he really likes The Olive Garden in the U.S. Flamed by locals, of course -- I don't understand why people are so ashamed of their chain restaurants.
As for the most common thing eaten in the U.S., we all know that pizza has passed up hamburgers in the last decade or so, so that would be my concept of middle of the road food in the U.S. now -- the thing that most of the population eats is about as middle as you can get, and I just haven't seen any lentils there. It is not at all a criticism or a disparagement, and I really don't understand why hackles seem to have been raised. I was just putting forth the idea that if you list, say, the 50 most common food items eaten in the United States, lentils will not be on that list. Obviously, in a country with a population of 300 million, it will be at the top of the list of a minority.
As for France, the most common item eaten is chicken and french fries. That is middle of the road for here, no fancy sauces, no distinquished frills and a light year from the international reputation of French cuisine. It is nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to brag about.
So please explain to me why the middle of the road needs to be so wide? For me, by definition a road is a thin line through the landscape. All of the scenery is on both sides, but most people stick to the middle.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,549 Location: Montréal
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #7 on Dec 29, 2009, 4:24pm »
All the Americans I know who are ashamed of the Olive Garden say that it is because it is so dreadfully bad (I have never eaten in one or seen one - though sometimes such chains find themselves along roadside suburbs I'd never get to). Why on earth would my Italian-American friend in the North Bronx eat there when there are good family restaurants right in his own neighbourhood that are if anything cheaper?
Lots of people are annoyed by chains with bad to indifferent food being seen as typical of what is available and what people eat.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,575 Location: Paris, France
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #8 on Dec 29, 2009, 6:49pm »
I am thinking of movies and how they depict typical meals. I would say that when there are not scenes of pizza or junk food, the perfect family is eating a roast with mashed potatoes and peas 90% of the time. Now that would be "middle of the road."
In the same vein, in every single American movie that shows somebody carrying their large bag of groceries, there is always a bunch of celery protruding from the bag. In every single French movie that shows somebody carrying their large bag of groceries, there is always a bunch of leeks protruding from the bag. I like both of them -- what should I do? The two of them in the same bag would not be photogenic.
I don't "hate" bananas in flour tortillas. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes. "Cada loca con su tema." But, I can imagine, in my mind's palate, how I would like or dislike that. While it doesn't sound ghastly, I don't believe it's something I'd really like. Just as I dislike coconut milk/cream in food. I know a lot of people like that, and that's great. Just not for me. I believe that over the years I've had an open mind for trying new foods, but as I get older, my tastes are locking in more. There is much, much "authentic" Mexican food that I quite dislike, and some that I'm crazy about.
Now, on the other hand, I commonly eat hot breakfast cereal with boiled egg quarters and spicy Asian or Mexican condiments. I don't expect that everyone would enjoy it if they tried it, and I don't push it.
The last comment I'd like to make is that it's been a tradition with some of us, myself included, who may have come from the TT Get Stuffed Branch in its wild and crazy heyday, that we sometimes make ourageous statements for exaggerated effect. That doesn't mean we don't like "you" or disrespect your opinion.
DC, first, I wasn't the least bit offended by your dissing of my banana suggestion. Really. Nor did I feel any disrespect of my opinion.
I agree that as we get older though, our individual tastes do lock down somewhat and I myself have a few food quirks that I wouldn't dare foist on anyone else (i.e. I salt my watermelon...and I hardly salt anything else).
You should have seen how a German got flamed on another website for saying that he really likes The Olive Garden in the U.S. Flamed by locals, of course -- I don't understand why people are so ashamed of their chain restaurants.
As for the most common thing eaten in the U.S., we all know that pizza has passed up hamburgers in the last decade or so, so that would be my concept of middle of the road food in the U.S. now -- the thing that most of the population eats is about as middle as you can get, and I just haven't seen any lentils there. It is not at all a criticism or a disparagement, and I really don't understand why hackles seem to have been raised. I was just putting forth the idea that if you list, say, the 50 most common food items eaten in the United States, lentils will not be on that list. Obviously, in a country with a population of 300 million, it will be at the top of the list of a minority.
As for France, the most common item eaten is chicken and french fries. That is middle of the road for here, no fancy sauces, no distinquished frills and a light year from the international reputation of French cuisine. It is nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to brag about.
So please explain to me why the middle of the road needs to be so wide? For me, by definition a road is a thin line through the landscape. All of the scenery is on both sides, but most people stick to the middle.
Kerouac, I think you ask a good question - but I don't know the answer. Personally, I think that middle of the road as it pertains to Denny's etc is a menu that will least offend the greatest number of people. So if you are taking a road trip from your home in Maine to visit someone in Chicago, you will pass through several regions of the US where common foods are radically different. Denny's and others have sought to simplify their offerings in order to offer something less foreign to diners.
However its a bit like Budweiser being crafted to be the least offensive beer to all of the US soldiers in Vietnam. And it still doesn't define American eating (or beer drinking) habits.
And I agree that lentils are likely not on the top 50 list for the US, but they probably aren't on the bottom 50 either.
Here's an article I found today regarding the top 10 foods that are distinctively American. Although you would likely need to eat them in their native State in order to experience the best versions.
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 994 Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #12 on Dec 30, 2009, 3:12am »
Well, I am going to jump in here. Dennys is indicative of a style of cooking. It is typically what a lot of people remember eating when they were young. If you check out the demographics of Dennys, I think you will find that it is typically middle age or older people that eat there. I think it reminds them of their youth and I know my Dad who was raised on a farm loved the place. So, I think nostalgia has something to do with it.
The road is wide in the food area here in America because it is diverse. Most Americans eat out pretty regularly and it is as you say K2, pizza, etc. However, there are a number of Americans that are changing or have changed their eating habits and I think that is reflected more in the younger Americans, than the old. As more and more of the depression babies leave I think you will see a gradual shift to more healthy foods. Of course regional influences have a lot to do with the prolific choices. For instance, I had fish tacos, with roasted veggies(corn, squash, spinach) and even 2 years ago, you wouldn't have seen something like this on the menu.
When you're chewing on life's gristle Don't grumble, give a whistle And this'll help things turn out for the best... And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life. Monty Python's Life of Brian
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,575 Location: Paris, France
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #13 on Dec 30, 2009, 5:39am »
I'll believe the "gradual shift to healthy foods" as soon as the obesity levels begin to go down. But except for countries experiencing a famine, I don't think there is a single country in the world where the people are getting thinner for the moment.
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 994 Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #14 on Dec 30, 2009, 3:03pm »
I agree with you K2 on the obesity issue. I live in an area where Hispanic food prevails and yet, 0 transfat tortillas are very prevalent in the stores here. Many of the Mexican food restaurants are cooking healthier, yes, it does change the flavor but it is a step in the right direction. There are more and more fast food restaurants that are cooking their fare differently and more healthy. Schools are changing their menus and I do believe that the next generation will be the ones that will change the horrible trend that their folks have started.
When you're chewing on life's gristle Don't grumble, give a whistle And this'll help things turn out for the best... And...always look on the bright side of life... Always look on the light side of life. Monty Python's Life of Brian
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,575 Location: Paris, France
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #15 on Dec 30, 2009, 3:21pm »
I'm afraid that it might be a bit like "light" cigarettes which people suck on harder to get the missing flavor and end up getting more nicotine than before. "Light" food is sort of the same -- people eat more of it either because it doesn't satisfy them or because they think they are entitled to more due to reduced fat or sugar.
Joined: Jan 2013 Gender: Female Posts: 373 Location: NOLA,USA
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #16 on Dec 30, 2009, 3:28pm »
Don't know about other major cities but NYC has enacted several reforms in the way of more healthy food,beverage consumption(trans fats,sugar). Don't know that I wholly agree with either.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 5,370 Location: Montana & Florida, USA
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #17 on Dec 31, 2009, 4:11am »
I fear that the whole industrialized food production and distribution system will make it very unlikely that many people will shift to wholesome unadulterated food that is good for them. So I don't expect the obesity epidemic to go away. Rather, I fear a future populace more like the humans in Wall-E's world....
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,355 Location: Mexico
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #18 on Dec 31, 2009, 4:57pm »
I have been dying to reply to this thread & to the culinary roots one, but the borrowed computer time, family visit, & traveling haven't been conducive to thoughtful, intelligent answers. (Some might say those elude me at any time.)
Applause to Cristina for creating the perfect venue for discussing food likes, dislikes, and the pointless stereotypes surrounding them.
I know a guy here who went to the US illegally to work. He lived in an apartment with several other men in order to save money so they could all return to Mexico as soon as possible. He announced to me that no one in the United States cooks -- all they do is open cans. Of course his six weeks in the US living with other non-cooks in a Mexican area of Los Angeles would be a more reliable gauge of US cooking than my half-century of experience with it.
I offer that anecdote because I think it expresses how people can be quite happy to create pigeonholes for their beliefs, rather than actually learning something.
I can't agree with the idea that our food tastes lock down with age. Really, for cooks or anyone who enjoys eating, I'd think it would be just the opposite. The more I know about what's out there, the more I want to try it.
Mine was an Air Force family and my parents came from different parts of the US and from different ethnic backgrounds. Even as a kid I knew that there was great regional variety in the US and a whole other world of flavors and preparation in other countries. However, I'm sure that I was not alone in this, as the interest in "gourmet" food and cooking in the middle & late sixties showed. Even though "gourmet" was not an accurate description, it indicated a recognition and respect for cuisines other than mom's home cooking.
I would have found the put-down of the Olive Garden puzzling if the last one I tried hadn't been so awful. Previously, every one in which I'd eaten had pleasant ambiance, good wait-staff, and well-prepared, tasty food. Many older people enjoy it for the soup & salad combo OG offers. I doubt that anyone cares whether or not their Zuppa Toscana is authentic or not, but chain restaurants like this are valuable in introducing new flavor ideas to people in a safe, familar setting.
And speaking of chain restaurants, places such as Denny's, Black Kettle, etc. are wonderful to encounter when on an interstate trip. They give the chance to leave the car and sit down to a normal meal. Meatloaf, potatoes, and a vegetable prepared in good old middle-of-the-road fashion is a civilized and healthful alternative to the drive-through window.
We probably all started cooking with those middle-of-the-road dishes, or their equivalents in whatever our home countries are. Learning how to cook simple, known foods well is the foundation for cooking and eating exploration.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2009, 4:59pm by bixaorellana »
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 3,885 Location: Phnom Penh
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #19 on Jan 5, 2010, 9:44am »
From Cristina's list:
1. Clam chowder, agree. 2. Pastrami, I always thought that was Italian from the sound of it. 3. Shoofly pie, no idea, seems to be a fruit pie, but agree. 4. Smithfield ham, I think there's another famous ham, agree. 5. Po boys, saw them in Cas' thread on the festival, agree. 6. Fajitas, always thought this was Mexicanian. 7. Chicago hot dogs, agree. 8. Chile verde, again, seems Mexican to me. 9. San Francisco sourdough, too general. 10. Olympia oysters, indigenous, so agree.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,355 Location: Mexico
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #20 on Jan 6, 2010, 5:17pm »
Thanks for putting the list here, HW. I have to admit that I usually wind up skipping most msn articles, no matter how interesting, because of their insanely annoying presentation. Seeing your list made me go back & click on the link. ( Sorry, Cristina)
I did skim the article, though, and noted that it actually perpetrates some notions. I took exception to the statement that one would want ones poboy dressed. The writer may want his dressed, I don't want mine that way! Also on fajitas and chile verde -- both of those foods come from a part of the US that was Mexico for centuries, so you could argue they are Mexican. I wish the article was clearer on whether an identical food can be found in some other part of the world, as in the case of pastrami.
I never knew there were special Chicago hot dogs, nor did I know what was in shoofly pie.
Thanks for putting the list here, HW. I have to admit that I usually wind up skipping most msn articles, no matter how interesting, because of their insanely annoying presentation. Seeing your list made me go back & click on the link. ( Sorry, Cristina)
I did skim the article, though, and noted that it actually perpetrates some notions. I took exception to the statement that one would want ones poboy dressed. The writer may want his dressed, I don't want mine that way! Also on fajitas and chile verde -- both of those foods come from a part of the US that was Mexico for centuries, so you could argue they are Mexican. I wish the article was clearer on whether an identical food can be found in some other part of the world, as in the case of pastrami.
I never knew there were special Chicago hot dogs, nor did I know what was in shoofly pie.
I wholeheartedly agree about the SW being a part of Mexico as an influence, but I'm curious Bixa (or Don C), are fajitas or chili verde common in Mexico?
And I agree with the MSN presentation style being less than desirable so I also thank HW for taking up my slack in posting the list.
My name really isn't Don, but I used to be anónimo.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 2,952 Location: Michoacán, México
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #22 on Jan 7, 2010, 1:17am »
"I'm curious Bixa (or Don C), are fajitas or chili verde common in Mexico?"
Fajitas as they are known North Of the Border can be found, but far more common is arrachera (marinated skirt steak), which with tortillas and grilled onions, is fajita-like. Or the even more common tacos de carne asada (bistec). What you rarely never would encounter here are the shredded yellow cheese and the sour cream for the fajitas.
Carne de cerdo en salsa verde (green chile plus tomatillos, etc) is fairly common. Around Pátzcuaro, carne en salsa negra is more commonly served.
I would say that Mexico influenced the Southwestern cuisine and not much the other way. Mexican cuisine is distinctly regional although there are some common elements all over the country.
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,379 Location: Winnipeg
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #23 on Jan 7, 2010, 2:16am »
I think the list is idiotic as it doesn't include some version of BBQ. And if I had my way it would also include "Italian Beef" (a Chicago specialty which is to die for - also to die of I would expect)
I think the list is idiotic as it doesn't include some version of BBQ. And if I had my way it would also include "Italian Beef" (a Chicago specialty which is to die for - also to die of I would expect)
imec, in the text of the article, the authors did note that BBQ is most definitely American cuisine, however felt it needed its own list due the vast regional differences.
And amen to your suggestion that Chicago's Italian beef sandwiches should have been included!
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 25,355 Location: Mexico
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #25 on Jan 8, 2010, 1:05am »
Quote:
Cristina wrote: I wholeheartedly agree about the SW being a part of Mexico as an influence, but I'm curious Bixa (or Don C), are fajitas or chili verde common in Mexico?
We really need input from Cristina and Traveler63 here!
Cristina, I think so much of the food of the southwestern US must have been influenced by northern Mexico & vice versa. And some of the regional styles there are very different from those where I live or where Don Cuevas lives.
I do know that the chili verde from Colorado is not green because of tomatillos. My sister lived there for years and much of the population of Mexican descent have been there for three hundred years or more, which should mean their cooking isn't borrowed from modern-day Mexico. Somewhere I have a Colorado green chili recipe from a local lady, mother of my sister's best friend. This one from the internet seems very similar: http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=6074742
Around here, arrachera is encountered as highly desirable tacos. I was treated to a wonderful, rare, huge (not thin) arrachera at a nice steakhouse here, but that was the only time I saw it served that way. There is one recipe that keeps coming up online calling for celery salt, nutmeg, herbs de provence, & both dijon & honey mustard! I don't know what that is, but it ain't Mexican!
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,549 Location: Montréal
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #26 on Jan 8, 2010, 1:13am »
What are Chicago Italian beef sandwiches? One easily imagines this Land of Cockaigne, the other side of the "Jungle". Idem the hordes of Italians who emigrated to Argentina.
The (smoked, slow-cooked) types of US barbecue do seem distinctive among the many types of grilled-meat cooking throughout the Americas.
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5,379 Location: Winnipeg
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #27 on Jan 8, 2010, 2:13am »
lagatta, first thing you should know is it has little to do with Italy. For description, history, recipes, sources etc., check out this site: http://www.italianbeef.com/
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 3,549 Location: Montréal
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #28 on Jan 8, 2010, 2:40am »
Oh, I knew it had nothing to do with Italy, where beef was an élite dish (like Florentine beefsteaks) until very recently. But I thought it had to do with Italian immigrants in beef country (in the case of Chicago, not where the ranches were, but where huge slaughterhouses were located, between the ranching "West" and the consuming "East").
That sandwich sounds wonderful.
Wonder if some vegans have come up with an "Italian Wheat" sandwich made of processed seitan? Some actually made a "Smoked Wheat", with the spices from "Smoked Meat" (similar to pastrami). No, I haven't eaten it.
I saw the earlier thread, but it continued after your post and mine. There are some great hand-painted road food signs between Montréal and Ottawa, both on the Québec side and the old Ontario highway, which is also in a mostly French-speaking area.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 34,575 Location: Paris, France
Re: Preconceived Culinary Notions « Reply #29 on Jan 9, 2010, 6:12pm »
Who has had a problem with food that their parents decreed as "inedible"?
There was only one item that I avoided for many years -- raspberries. My mother had a horror of them due to raspberry being used as the flavoring for castor oil when she was a little girl. So no raspberries ever entered the house when I was growing up, and believe it or not, the very first time I tasted raspberries was when my parents had moved to France and decided to replace the currant bushes with raspberries instead. And I still did not like the raspberries when I tasted them, because I really liked the tart currants of which my grandmother had made delicious jams.
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I don't know what that is, but it ain't Mexican!