|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 20:12:15 GMT
Today I decided that the time had come to return to that place. I took the metro to Porte d'Italie in the south of Paris. But my destination was not Italy this time. I really don't know much about suburban buses, but I finally found the correct bus stop. The indicator told me that I wouldn't have to wait too long. The bus arrived and the sign on the side indicated that it was the correct one. I got on board. No crowd at this time of day. Just about everybody knows how to use the metro, but a lot of non locals are afraid of taking the bus. It's really quite simple. You put your ticket in the machine or you wave your Navigo pass (a smart chip card) in front of the purple circle. We left Paris and penetrated the suburbs. You can tell almost immediately when you leave Paris, because the urban planning rules no longer apply. Pastry shops and cafés just don't have the same look anymore. It didn't take very long for the bus to get to Thiais. I got off in a zone of relative desolation. Right across from the entrance is the place where the employees probably have lunch often. I crossed the road and approached the entrance. Thiais is the newest Parisian cemetery, dating from 1929. There are 14 cemeteries inside Paris but all but 3 of them are quite small, so the city has bought quite a bit of space in the suburbs to bury its dead. It operates six cemeteries in the suburbs. While Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris seems enormous with its 44 hectares, the cemetery in Pantin is almost 108 hectares, and Thiais is 103 hectares. Here is a Google Earth view of Thiais. I arrived as the cemetery was beginning its busy day. Lots of people were gathering for morning funerals, and there are plenty of funerals every day. I had a long way to walk, hoping that I would remember where to go. I hadn't been there for two years. All of the various trees fascinated me. I get sidetracked easily, so I just had to take a closer look at one of the burial areas that I found frankly weird. It had no real tombstones but a sort of trench instead. Were the people in the trench or under the grass I was walking on? It looked like an ugly way to be buried to me, but clearly it was their choice. I was going to the area where people did not have a choice. (end of part one)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 20:57:18 GMT
I got sidetracked again as I passed one of the Chinese sections. One thing that I really liked about this area is that the inner sections was not at all rectangular like all the rest and followed irregular curves. Did you notice anything a bit odd about one of those tombstones? This was a fascinating section. 0ne tomb was still covered with plenty of offerings. Some of it was not so appetizing anymore. Okay, time to meet up with Donna. Oh, but the morning dew and the rose fruit had to be admired as well... Donna had been buried with the indigents, as per her wishes. She didn't want her family to pay for anything. These tombs are kept for 5 years by the city of Paris, long enough for families to discover that a long lost relative has died, or long enough for a very poor family to find money for a more permanent grave... Otherwise, after five years, the people are disinterred and dispersed in the memorial garden. Donna, where are you? I'm not quite sure. Damn! I should have enquired at the office at the entrance, because I am not really sure what the lot number is although I remember that the row is "LJ" -- but there are several indigent sectors and all of them have an LJ row (as well as LA, LB, LC, LD, LE, etc... and also L1, L2, L3, L4 and so on). I pause for a moment at the "next person today." When I went to Donna's burial with one other person, I had located her tomb by finding the "slab removal device." The other person and I had arrived slightly early, wondering what to do. Then a van appeared in the distance, and it drove up to the sector where we were. There were six very elegant men who brought out the coffin with extreme respect, although they had no way of knowing if anybody would be there. They were more or less surprised to see us, since most of the people buried in that area have absolutely no family or friends. It is considered to be a disgrace to be buried with the indigents. The slab was removed and the coffin was carefully placed inside. Then the men backed away temporarily in case we wanted to pray or cry or something. Clearly they did not know us. We nodded quite quickly for them to continue with their job. The slab was placed back on top and the slab removal device was immediately moved to the next empty tomb. They asked if we wanted a ride back to the entrance but we preferred to walk, even though it was so far. Hey, did you notice that the city of Paris put a pot of chrysanthemums at the foot of every single indigent grave? (And there are a lot of them!) That's a lot more than most of the paid-for tombs get. Still looking for Donna.... Still can't help myself from admiring the barren vegetation... (end of part two)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 21:21:33 GMT
I walked up and down the "LJ" row in so many sectors that I was beginning to think that there had been a mistake or a sacrilege. Some of the name plates were missing, and a few times, when I felt that I had found the right place, it wasn't the correct name on the tomb. I had only been to Thiais twice -- once on the day of the burial and then a few weeks later to take her brother to see the tomb. The plaques are only placed on the tombs a few months later, so I had never seen the name on the grave. I changed to another sector and then another one (Can there really be so many people who die in Paris with no decent burial? Apparently so.). And finally I found her. Her number is LJ-2. Well, at least for 3 more years. Turned to look at the trees again! And so, goodbye, Donna. I don't know if I'll be back. We must have seen a hundred movies together, maybe more. And there were all of those dinner parties, and the times you got sick because we all thought that you just couldn't hold your liquor and we didn't know that both of your kidneys were dead. And who could ever forget that night at Alexis' apartment when he brought out all of his sex toys? He said "don't close the handcuffs because I don't have the key" but you weren't listening, and click, you were trapped. (I didn't stay around to see the end of the episode, but I heard later on that the rest of you had taken my adivice and gone to a sex shop for assistance.) I wonder if your cat Huckleberry is still alive. I know that he went to a good family, but I'm not sure if I forgive you for leaving him like that. You explained to us humans why you were ending your life, but how could he possibly understand? It is strange to me that it is my name that is on your death certificate, even though we were not close in the final months. But I accepted to take care of the administrative details when it was determined that I was the bureaucracy expert. Oh, if you knew how many offices I visited to get that certificate, how you would laugh! Oh well... If I had found this sign, I would have found the tomb faster. Crows waited in the trees, I'm not sure for what. Walking back to the entrance along another route, I saw that there were many areas where the very poor put their families but are not able to keep up appearances. (end of part three)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 21:54:06 GMT
I trekked back to the entrance. Wow, such a distance! I came across several of the Jewish sections, which are always quite interesting. Then I discovered an entire military cemetery contained in the main Thiais cemetery. Back on the endless road out of here... There is no way that this little vacuum vehicle can pick up all the leaves. Oh, an Orthodox section...! Better take a look at that. (Actually, I was looking for the Muslim section and never found it.) This tomb has to have been moved here, because it seems much older than the cemetery. Who was he? At this time of year, you can more easily see the radical pruning techniques of French gardeners. I couldn't help wondering what the natural shape and size of this sort of plant is. But wait! What's this I see off to the side? What is that flag? Croatian? Serbian? Like so many other soldiers, buried so far from home. Pansies have been planted to survive the winter and provide some color when spring arrives. The funerals continue. I suppose that when it is pouring rain, the people wait here. Back at the bus stop, I notice some final graveyard graffiti. This is a very dismal road. Take me back to Paris as fast as possible. (end)
|
|
|
Post by imec on Dec 4, 2009 23:17:50 GMT
Wonderful! Especially with the story of your friend. Thanks so much for this.
|
|
|
Post by fumobici on Dec 5, 2009 0:57:03 GMT
Yes, thank you. I was by turns interested, moved, amused and informed.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Dec 5, 2009 2:59:04 GMT
This was wonderful. I didn't want it to end, although the ending was as perfect and seamless as the rest of the story. Really, it was more like watching a move than looking at a photo essay!
So many fabulous photographs ~~ the food offerings on the Chinese graves -- well all of them in the Chinese part, the first and the last shots of the indigent area, the rosehips ........ too many to mention, they are all so good.
That brutal pruning technique seen on the bare trees, most obvious in the photo after the one of cars arriving for funerals, is called pollarding.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 4:28:14 GMT
From the very beginning of the thread,the bus stop,the stores,are so very reminiscent of when you leave Manhattan and go into Queens,it looks just like it in an odd, suburban only kind of way. The very,very large cemetery outside of NYC,I can't recall the name,is in Queens,I've only been there twice,has miles and miles of similar cultural,ethnic sections. I enjoyed the trees and the rose hips as well.
|
|
|
Post by david on Dec 15, 2009 17:42:52 GMT
I was amazed to find that you had visited the cemetry so recently. Not long ago I discovered that my father's cousin Jean is buried there and I am planning to visit his grave on a trip to Paris next month. Now I Know how to get there. Jean died in the 1950s, so from what you say I am not sure if his grave stone will still be there. I have the location of his grave so I'll go and see. Thank You.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 18:09:23 GMT
The cemetery offices always have a registry for finding people, as long as you know the exact name and the date of death. I found my great aunt and uncle in Courbevoie that way, only knowing the great aunt's name and that she had died "in 1972".
I thought they would have everything on a computer already (this was about 5 years ago), but they actually got out a big ledger and found it very quickly.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 23:02:54 GMT
Do you take photos, david? If so perhaps, you could post some of the photos that I missed when you go there. And maybe it will be a dreary rainy or snowy day, which would completely change the photographic opportunities. Not that I am hoping for that for you.
|
|
|
Post by david on Dec 16, 2009 17:00:09 GMT
I'll certainly take some photos and post them if I can.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Dec 16, 2009 19:46:17 GMT
Hey David ~~ can't wait to see another view of this interesting place. But please, don't wait for the cemetery visit to start posting pictures, if there is something you'd like to share now.
Please look in your inbox, as I've sent you something there. The inbox is located in the banner that says "Any Port in a Storm" at the top of every page. You'll see Hey, david, you have x messages, x are new. Click on the different-colored text in that sentence.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Dec 16, 2009 20:34:03 GMT
This is an extremely compelling thread. I can't say I "enjoyed" it, given the subject matter, but it would also be reductive to say it distrubed me. It certainly made me think and feel. I have been to a couple of the suburban cemeteries but never to Thiais, as I doubt many people go there unless they knew someone who was buried there.
I guess Donna's death was simply recorded as a suicide, since euthanasia isn't recognised in most places, let alone self-euthanasia. And I hope Huckleberry has adjusted to his adoptive humans.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 20:15:52 GMT
I think I will return next week, because Donna is coming due for dispersal by the end of the year. I must take a little potted plant because I want them to know that she has not been forgotten when they dig her up.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 19:47:00 GMT
Well, I never made it back to the cemetery, but I haven't forgotten Donna. However, I doubt if they really disinter them instantly after 5 years because there is so much room there.
|
|
|
Post by htmb on Mar 18, 2013 0:57:42 GMT
The graceful way you told the tale of your visit, mixed with rememberances of your friend, was very touching, Kerouac. I was drawn in by the story and your marvelous photos.
|
|
|
Post by tod2 on Mar 18, 2013 11:39:50 GMT
Re-reading your wonderful memorial photo essay to Donna was lovely. Maybe when you find yourself at a loose end.....wake up one morning and think, 'what shall I get up to today?'....maybe you'll go back and see if she has been moved
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 11:43:33 GMT
Well, if she is not there anymore, I will know she is in the memorial garden where they scatter the ashes after incineration.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 17:41:38 GMT
I still need to get back to that damned place! I am a cemetery junkie.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 17, 2013 1:50:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Kathy on May 17, 2014 9:10:01 GMT
Very interesting. Donna was lucky to have you as a friend. My heart feels for someone in her situation, many do not understand how someone could do this but then they probably have never had inadequately controlled pain either. Never judge another. I hope they have not found the need to move her yet.
|
|
still waiting for Jim Morrison
Guest
Offline
|
Post by still waiting for Jim Morrison on Oct 16, 2014 1:38:47 GMT
Very interesting your visit to your friend's grave. Pics are awesome..!!! It gives the fragility of our lives. Once we are gone...we are gone...!!! All if it was like a movie with Peter Lorrie looking in from away... Thank you for sharing such marvelous story....
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 16, 2014 2:26:30 GMT
I have no problem whatsoever understanding why someone in that state would want to end it all. It has nothing to do with being romantically suicidal.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 5:06:08 GMT
Now that the T7 tram goes directly to the front entrance of the cemetery, I plan to go back there before long.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 17, 2014 2:04:19 GMT
Do you start off from Villejuif? I don't see anywhere else that intersects with lines from Paris proper, but I'm not up on all the latest tram developments.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 5:41:37 GMT
Yes, you have to ride metro line 7 to the end to get the tram.
|
|
|
Post by jay on Jul 17, 2017 12:30:47 GMT
Wow! Thank you for sharing. Came across this when I was trying to find information on being buried in Paris, specifically Pere Lachaise, which seems nearly impossible. From what I could learn, you must be French by birth (we are not) and must live and/or die in Paris, and the waiting list is very long. We are most interested in having our ashes in one of the thousand of vaults that line the walls (Maria Callas has a vault, although her remains were scattered at sea), there is scant information on doing that.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Jul 17, 2017 12:59:42 GMT
I definitely knew (personally) people who were not born French who are spending their afterlives buried or interred at Père Lachaise, in fairly recent years. Where does one find out about such things?
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 17, 2017 13:33:08 GMT
|
|