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Post by cheerypeabrain on Jun 20, 2017 19:54:02 GMT
What is English food now anyway? pies and roast meats? caseroles, stews and sausages? Thank goodness for travel and immigration..where would we be without chillies garlic and ginger ?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 20, 2017 20:09:48 GMT
It is quite obvious that all of our countries are better off now with the diversity that our new citizens have brought us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 20:46:59 GMT
Well, given that there are thirteen pages on this particular topic, I now ask again the question about specific traditional aforementioned BRITISH foods, not the ethnic diversity obviously available in such a city as London. Not meant to be a criticism or any thing of the like, but, rather, a continued discussion with one of the most valued gourmands on this forum, (and whose culinary opinions I value).
If the OP was POLISH food, would one diverge and ask "what is Polish food anyway"?
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 20, 2017 20:50:01 GMT
It's quite simple. You cannot expect southern jessies to know proper mushy peas from a hole in their arse. Food in the UK varies greatly by region for the same dishes. I'd never expect to get good haggis outside Scotland for example, the best pasties are in Cornwall, cream tea in Devon, Yorkshire pudding in Yorkshire etc. The best mushy peas come from the north, not the south. They often use garden peas and are an abomination. In many countries you can travel a long way and still have authentic food from a region you've recently left. Not so in the UK. The standard drops off dramatically even after 50km.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 20:53:49 GMT
PLEASE tell me that we cross posted dearheart whose contributions I have so valued in this thread.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 20, 2017 20:56:49 GMT
Not wanting to go off topic, but there is a time when "foreign" dishes become a part of the local cuisine in a country. Chicken tikka masala is one of the top dishes in England, just as couscous is in France, doner kebab in Germany or pizza or spaghetti and meatballs in the United States. Just considering the fact that pizza is the most popular dish in the United States, can anybody still say that it is a foreign dish?
However, "traditional" British food is still a very interesting topic, even if many of the dishes are no longer eaten nearly as much as they once were. Yorkshire pudding? Bangers and mash? Pasties? I would like some of our British members to tell us how often they eat such things.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 21:06:10 GMT
Kinda my point exactly K2. Just as gumbo, etouffe, bisque and most especially boudin become confused with our French Canadian derivations, British food, to me anyway, is much more specific to dishes that are singular to Britain. If not, than why the OP rambling on for thirteen pages? It's not like the regional differentiation here of Cajun vs. Creole.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 20, 2017 21:16:09 GMT
Casi, I'm struggling to write on my phone keyboard at the moment. I'll stick my oar in better tomorrow. Southern mushy peas are more likely from a tin. It is easy as proper ones take quite some time. Mine take overnight as I soak dried peas with baking soda then slowly cook with just salt and a little sugar. I then eat them by themselves and with mint sauce made from fresh mint and malt vinegar. Food of the Gods.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 21, 2017 1:02:40 GMT
You might find them in South America as well. Both Cornish and Welsh emigrated to that part of the world as miners. And to many other places. I believe that Cornish is the Celtic language in the UK closest to Breton, closer than Welsh (Scottish and Irish Gaelic belong to another branch of the Celtic language family; if I recall Manx is also on that branch).
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Post by lagatta on Jun 21, 2017 6:59:46 GMT
Perhaps three - I don't know how Gallego fits in.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Jun 21, 2017 7:25:32 GMT
I didn't mean to be flippant Casi, apologies if I did, the trouble is that (like everywhere) traditional food has been fiddled with and adapted to suit modern tastes.
My parents preferred what they called 'plain food', steamed, boiled or roast vegetables served with roasted meat. Sounds boring, but the meat was always seasoned well and cooked to perfection , the potatoes were roasted around the meat so that they soaked up all the meat juices and the vegetables were locally grown and fresh...the gravy sauce was always made with the rest of reserved meat juices too...Yorkshire pudding was only ever served with beef and they thought that horseradish sauce was exotic.
I suppose that we eat similar food, I make steak pudding occasionally (rich steak and onions in gravy contained in a steamed suet crust) it's my interpretation of steak and kidney pudding...Don't like kidney and I add red wine, garlic and other things to the sauce that would horrify my mother. We have Yorkshire with beef altho my mum would cook toad in the hole too. Mark is right about the regional variations..Melton Mowbray is in my region and they claim to be the home of the pork pie (OH loves them)...I will take some pics as I'm out and about and when I cook British recipes....
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 21, 2017 9:33:03 GMT
One of the unsung heroes of human inventions, never mind penicillin, the wheel, fire, space travel etc, is pastry. In its many forms. The world wouldn't be the same without it. From sweet to savoury, from pasties to pies, empanadas, pork pies with its hot water pastry and all things in between. Life would be a sadder place if it had never appeared. Under-utilised suet also, to make, for example the little known Bedfordshire Clanger (mentioned many pages back) and proper steak and kidney pudding (not pie, pudding). And what about gammon? In the form I know it is difficult to find in other countries. "Gammon is the hind leg of pork after it has been cured by dry-salting or brining." Was at one time very popular but has fallen somewhat by the wayside. Any good Carvery should have it though. I ask, what would be the equivalent in another/your country? I'm only asking so I can try it.
As with most foods and dishes, when time is taken and it is made from scratch, it tastes a lot better than the mass produced supermarket equivalent. Unfortunately most people in the UK don't make the traditional stuff any more and it is the same in most countries, especially western ones. This means that in London I can get mushy peas, but they are not the real stuff. In Edinburgh I can get pork pies, but the real ones are from Cheery's area, and taste better as they are made at local butchers and bakers and if not totally hand made, then are made in small batches on a small scale.
"Traditional" British food, or at least the stuff I think is so, is fast disappearing as it gets adjusted, altered and devalued, or just forgotten, because of mass production wanting to feed the masses. Plus, influences from other countries (which, don't get me wrong, isn't all bad, just bad for traditional food) and the pervasive influence of fads, conflicting opinions on what is healthy food, low fat, low this or that, diets that everyone seems to be on, and the modern allergy syndrome whereby everyone knows first hand someone who is allergic to some basic staple - either because you were brought up wrong, you've decided that just because you don't like something you must have an allergy to it or because you are an idiot that just wants to attract attention to yourself by being 'different'. I'm certain very few people do have a proper debilitating allergy, the rest were wrapped in cotton wool as kids or suddenly decided one day they were. (Rant over on that score for now)
What is "traditional" in the UK? This is tied in with "regional", it has to be and I'll explain if I can. Bear with me as these are just my opinions, for what they may be worth. The UK is small but has many changes in weather, climate, soil composition, landscape and everything that affects food, over its landmass. These changes happen in relatively short distances. It can be a matter of just twenty or thirty miles/kilometres. For example, growing wheat in parts of the USA compared to apples in Somerset. Some apple trees were and still are only grown in one small area because they don't do so well in others, whereas wheat cultivation in the USA can stretch for I don't know how far, but must be hundreds of kilometres, or so it looks like. That's why you get good clotted cream in Devon but not in Somerset, just the next county. Dairy farming is different due in one part to the grasses. Somerset cream tea? Dorset cream tea? Doesn't exist as such. And that is also why there are a gazillion different cheeses and changes of local cheeses over a short distance. The factors above affect the taste and standards of dairy products. Different milk makes different tasting cheese. This is the same with the different beers and alcoholic drinks made in places not too far apart because the natural water is different too.
So often a (good) traditional UK dish is localised as part of my definition of traditional is where the vast majority of the ingredients are being grown or caught in the immediate area. Traditional to me is what is made locally from local ingredients. Not things imported particularly nor even transported from a different county. This discounts dishes brought in from other countries, Commonwealth or not. Indian and Chinese food is the most popular, but none of it is traditional, never mind chicken tikka masala being thought of as so.
One indicator to me as to if something in the UK is traditional is the ratio of herbs and spices. Spices are/were imported so little were used. Herbs grow all over, so a lot was used. If a dish has a lot of spices, like the aforementioned Indian dish, it cannot have been grown and made locally. If you look at recipes for a traditional jugged hare or lark pie, you might find a bit of cayenne pepper slipped in there, but only a pinch. But you will find a lot more herbs involved in most dishes.
In conclusion, a traditional dish needs to be made locally from mainly local ingredients and if it is made elsewhere than the original, it won't taste the same (think Cheddar cheese as an obvious example). Some dishes are Pan-UK and can be good, but nothing beats eating it where it was made. It can't involve a lot of spices nor meat/vegetables (e.g. avocados, ostrich steak) not naturally UK grown. So something as basic as root mash is traditional in many areas, but cider, not made in Somerset, not. Cockles, mussels, oysters are, chickpeas, rice, not.
Nowadays, as expected, if it takes time to make properly, we don't eat so much of it but buy it from the supermarket and it is usually made elsewhere to a "traditional" recipe. Do Brits eat traditional food? Sometimes without knowing it, sometimes traditional but from a different area and often not because we have access to world food that is often quicker and, depending on preference, be more tasty or at least with a different taste. Why boil potatoes for fifteen minutes when pasta takes eight and when dry, lasts longer. Stir fry a meal instead of making a pie? Obviously. Generalising, the UK always had plenty of wood and coal to cook on so dishes that take some time to cook were made, whereas countries with little natural fuel, or it was hard to get to, developed quicker methods like stir fries and small cut pieces of meat. As with the spice/herb thing, generally, if it takes time in the oven or over a heat source, it could well be traditional, but if it is quick to make in relation to that, then it is more likely not so.
Correct me if I'm wrong or you disagree, by all means. That's why I despair a bit when someone has a traditional British dish, but way, way, out of where the good stuff is made, and say it didn't taste so good. It won't. Anyway, I'm just going out for an Indian thali. One of the few things here that I will go out an eat rather than making myself.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 21, 2017 9:38:32 GMT
Pasties? My husband was from a family of Cornish miners in Mineral Point, Wisconsin. Pasties were a big part of our diet. I made them often for the family, but over time family size dwindled as did the taste for pasties on the part of family members. So I entered a pasty desert until Paris where I found ready-mades stocked at Marks and Spencer foods. An oasis in Paris. Who would have thought? Huckle ~ you have no idea how happy I am to have that information! When I was a child I had some books about tin miners from Cornwall in the United States. I was fascinated by them and read them over and over. The books are long gone, I can't find anyone else who read them, and I've long tried to remember in what part of the US my storybook family lived. Mystery solved! As for pasties, when I was old enough to cook I added them to my repertoire. Yaay for the M&S in Paris for rescuing you from the desert. You might find them in South America as well. Both Cornish and Welsh emigrated to that part of the world as miners. I didn't know about the Cornish and Welsh in S.America -- interesting! Of course I've long known about the Cornish descendents in Mexico, especially in Pachuca, which bills itself as the birthplace of "futbol" in the new world. You all might find these stories interesting: Cornish Mining in Mexico; From Cornwall to Mexico; and The pastes from HidalgoMy husband's grandfather was the last Cornish speaker in Wisconsin so made many recordings of Cornish for the Wisconsin Historical Society. Fascinating! My parents preferred what they called 'plain food', steamed, boiled or roast vegetables served with roasted meat. Sounds boring, but the meat was always seasoned well and cooked to perfection , the potatoes were roasted around the meat so that they soaked up all the meat juices and the vegetables were locally grown and fresh...the gravy sauce was always made with the rest of reserved meat juices too...Yorkshire pudding was only ever served with beef and they thought that horseradish sauce was exotic. I suppose that we eat similar food, I make steak pudding occasionally (rich steak and onions in gravy contained in a steamed suet crust) it's my interpretation of steak and kidney pudding...Don't like kidney and I add red wine, garlic and other things to the sauce that would horrify my mother. We have Yorkshire with beef altho my mum would cook toad in the hole too. Mark is right about the regional variations..Melton Mowbray is in my region and they claim to be the home of the pork pie (OH loves them)...I will take some pics as I'm out and about and when I cook British recipes.... Yes -- that is certainly what I think of when I think of "British food". Coincidentally, there is a Melton Mowbray pork pie reposing in my fridge right now. I bought it yesterday at Sainsbury's, part of my program of trying foods I've only ever read about.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 21, 2017 9:39:18 GMT
Good read Mark.
Mrs Cactus makes beautiful pastry because she has cold hands. Problem is she doesn't make it very often no matter how much we plead.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 21, 2017 9:39:30 GMT
Sorry, Mark ~ we simul-posted, so I need to go back and read your post now, which looks to be illuminating.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 21, 2017 9:44:37 GMT
Sorry, Bixa ~ we simul-posted, so I need to go back and read your post now, which looks to be illuminating.
Touché.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 21, 2017 12:15:46 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 21, 2017 13:55:39 GMT
And what about gammon? In the form I know it is difficult to find in other countries. I need to seek out gammon. An English woman I knew -- I think from the northern part of the country -- used to go on and on about it, but was incapable of describing it. The UK is small but has many changes in weather, climate, soil composition, landscape and everything that affects food, over its landmass. These changes happen in relatively short distances. It can be a matter of just twenty or thirty miles/kilometres. ... That's why you get good clotted cream in Devon but not in Somerset, just the next county. Dairy farming is different due in one part to the grasses. ... And that is also why there are a gazillion different cheeses and changes of local cheeses over a short distance. The factors above affect the taste and standards of dairy products. Different milk makes different tasting cheese. This is the same with the different beers and alcoholic drinks made in places not too far apart because the natural water is different too. Great explanation. One thing I learned last year in that short tour in Sussex and Kent was how very much the soil composition and its underlayer can vary in a very short distance. The way that was explained geologically was fascinating. Probably somewhat off topic, but a personal "tradition" -- I recently bought (here in London) a cheese called Red Leicester. Giant fireworks of happy nostalgia! My grandfather used to sell cheese in his general store in Louisiana. It came in a huge wheel and he kept it in the cold case along with cured meats to be sliced. When a customer wanted some cheese, he'd pull out the wheel and plunk it on a large tree stump at the end of the cold case. Then he'd use a long curved butcher's knife to cut off what was needed. It tasted exactly like the Red Leicester I bought. No idea what the wheel cheese was called. Mrs Cactus makes beautiful pastry because she has cold hands. ... and a warm heart! Bruce Chatwin in his book "In Patagonia" wrote about the Welsh in that part of Argentina. I found the family name in the Buenos Aires phone book also. Bixa Your report of those stories fascinates me. We would have loved them. A Cornish Little House on the Prairie? Another staple of the my Cornish familiy's diet was saffron buns/bread which was only slightly lighter than the lead they had mined. I loved "In Patagonia", but only vaguely remember the mention of the Welsh. Must re-read. My eternal gratitude to whomever might read this thread and supply my lost books' names. This recipe for Cornish saffron buns makes me think they might be a little dry. Sturdy bread for sturdy workers?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 14:21:37 GMT
Mark, thank you ever so much for taking the time(again) to delve deep into this topic. Fascinating.
Cheery, I didn't think you were being flippant at all, I just felt frustrated that without having all the knowledge to ask the right questions, at a loss when I knew there were traditional dishes that merited discussion.
Some of the very best cheeses I have ever imbibed are British.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 21, 2017 14:33:43 GMT
Red Leicester is similar to cheddar and has a history of 400 years or so. I've just, to be honest, had to check about it because I know it is dyed with something unusual but couldn't remember what it was. It used to be called just Leicester cheese but because of colouring being banned in WWII and an inferior white product made, after the war it was differentiated from the not so good stuff by calling it Red Leicester instead. It comes in wheels or blocks. The dye is called annatto – "...a vegetable dye derived from the husk of the fruit of the annatto tree found in South America and the Caribbean".
Saffron buns - saffron is really expensive, isn't it? Where on earth this tradition came from I've no idea. I bet it's some form of colouring nowadays.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 21, 2017 14:36:03 GMT
You are welcome young Ms Casimira. Just don't start me on cars and mechanical things. We'll be here all day.
Pork pies - a big variation in quality, around since the 14th Century, but eat at room temperature (if it's not a heat wave), not just out of the fridge, nor heated. Accompanied by whatever you want but nothing with too strong a flavour - though it can sometimes be part of a Ploughman's Lunch that would include pickles. One tradition where I am from, Nottinghamshire, is to eat it for breakfast. If it was good enough for D.H. Lawrence, it's good enough for me (though he just had it at Christmas). I admit not eating it for breakfast but any time after that. Usually with a lump of Cheshire or Lancashire cheese. But that's just me.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 21, 2017 16:28:09 GMT
I am learning more about British food on these recent posts than on most of the previous pages of this thread.
However, I have a question about British cheeses. Huckle makes it apparent that she has a preference for hard dry cheeses (of which France has plenty among its 400+ varieties, but perhaps she has never come across the correct ones).
I know that there are a number of strong soft blue cheeses in Great Britain, but are there any truly nasty (wonderful) stinky ones like in France and Italy? I know that I like Stilton, but it is not all that soft really. Does Great Britain do any runny cheeses?
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 21, 2017 20:53:04 GMT
Back on my phone again so crap keyboard. Will get back tomorrow if needed. In short, yes, but not so many. E.g. Stinking Bishop. By the way, the UK has 700+ cheeses.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 21, 2017 21:32:09 GMT
Is Stinking Bishop smelly.? I think Stinking Bishop is actually a pear variety and this cheese has a pear wash.
Or I could be talking bollocks.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 22, 2017 6:23:10 GMT
You're right, is my initial thought. The name is from the pear rather than the characteristics of the cheese. In my defence it was the only one I could think of as I went to bed. However - "Contrary to popular belief there is no pear such as the ‘Stinking Bishop’. The variety used in the perry (pear-based cider) in which this famous cheese is washed is actually called ‘Moorcroft’. The truth is is that the perry itself is eponymous with a malodourous and drunken member of a local family from yesteryear called Bishop who is said to have created the cider." www.pongcheese.co.uk/blog/stinking-bishop-the-story-of-a-masterpiece/And according to the Guardian newspaper, "Stinking Bishop officially Britain's smelliest cheese". I've just had a pleasant few minutes looking through info about British cheeses and I think those called rind washed cheese would have a few that fit the bill, though not that many. There are the milder brie and camembert UK cheeses and there are others that are pungent but only semi-soft. One called St Eadburgha may fit both bills in being soft and as it matures, more and more smelly. But we have many soft cheeses, like Winslade and St James that are soft and runny but with not too strong a smell or ones like Ardrahan that are firmer but smellier, though apparently not off puttingly so. I think there might be a hole in the market for a soft/runny and smelly cheese then. I may start up a business.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 22, 2017 8:24:25 GMT
I never thought of you as a cheeseaholic.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 22, 2017 8:32:30 GMT
I love cheese. Me and Wallace are soul mates.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 22, 2017 10:01:18 GMT
Thanks for the information, Mark.
I'm drawn to cheese like Munster from the Vosges, maroilles, époisses, things like that. However, I am not attracted to the cheeses containing live maggots and things like that.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 22, 2017 11:23:12 GMT
I sway towards the harder end of the scale. One Spanish cheese I favour is Manchego. But the crumbly Cheshire and things like that are what I buy. I'll eat most cheeses without a problem though.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 22, 2017 11:25:41 GMT
There certainly are French cheeses that are hard and aged; I'll have to think of them.
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