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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 20:30:06 GMT
He is not always a complete fool.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 17:27:28 GMT
PARIS, France (CNN) -- The French National Assembly announced Tuesday the creation of an inquiry into whether women in France should be allowed to wear the burka, one day after President Nicolas Sarkozy controversially told lawmakers that the traditional Muslim garment was "not welcome" in France. A cross-party panel of 32 lawmakers will investigate whether the traditional Muslim garment poses a threat to the secular nature of the French constitution. They are due to report back with their recommendations in six months. Last week 57 lawmakers -- led by communist legislator Andre Gerin -- signed a petition calling for a study into the feasibility of legislation to ban the burka in public places. On Monday Sarkozy declared in a keynote parliamentary address that the burka, which covers women from head to toe, is "not welcome" in France. "The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France," Sarkozy told lawmakers. The right of Muslim women to cover themselves is fiercely debated in France, which has a large Muslim minority but also a staunchly secular constitution. In 2004, the French parliament passed legislation banning Muslim girls from wearing headscarves in state schools, prompting widespread Muslim protests. The law also banned other conspicuous religious symbols including Sikh turbans, large Christian crucifixes and Jewish skull caps. Last year, France's top court denied a Moroccan woman's naturalization request on the grounds that she wore a burka. Some lawmakers have called for burkas to be banned completely, claiming they are degrading to women. They also include housing minister Fadela Amara, a Muslim-born women's rights campaigner, who has called the garment "a kind of tomb for women." "We cannot accept in our country women trapped behind a fence, cut off from social life, deprived of any identity. This is not the idea that we have of a woman's dignity," Sarkozy said Monday. But French Muslim leaders say that only a small minority of women wear the full veil and had previously criticized calls for the issue to be the subject of a parliamentary inquiry. "To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatizing Islam and the Muslims of France," Mohammed Moussaoui, the head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, told AFP last week. "We are shocked by the idea parliament should be put to work on such a marginal issue." France is not the only European Union country to have considered banning the burka. Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a ban in 2005, although the government of the time was defeated in elections before it could pass legislation to outlaw the garment.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 23, 2009 17:38:57 GMT
I am in complete agreement with Mohammed Moussaoui.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 17:43:13 GMT
One reason that this does not shock the French is that it is the Catholics who got their butts kicked even harder in 1905, and it was a very necessary thing to do at the time. Memories are longer in Europe than in certain other countries.
And freedom from religion is more important than freedom of religion here.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 23, 2009 17:52:58 GMT
Harsh measures to break the strangle-hold of a particular religion in a particular country at a particular time are sometimes necessary.
This does not seem to be the case here. The reason I agree with Moussaoui is because it still seems odd to put this much emphasis on the burkha (except for security reasons) in light of all the other problems that need addressing.
Though he also spoke at length about the economy, Mr. Sarkozy’s strongest comments came in reference to the wearing of burqas
The burqa issue was the most volatile of his 45-minute address, in which he pledged measures to alleviate the economic crisis, among them establishing a loan fund to finance the nation’s strategic priorities such as investments in education and training. The “crisis is not finished,” he said. “We don’t know when it will end.” He pledged to guarantee the “stability of our banking system” and the “most fragile citizens who are suffering the most.” He ruled out austerity measures for the nation to dig itself out of an economic crisis, pledging to give laid off workers the benefit of a year’s salary. “I will not increase taxes because an increase in taxes would delay the end of the crisis, and because by increasing taxes, when we are at our level of taxation, we would not reduce deficits, we would increase them,” he said. Throughout his speech, he also took up the cherished French notion of early retirements at age 60, noting that by 2010 “all options will be examined,” including raising the age for retirement.
You know France, I don't. But the two quotes above taken from the news article in your Reply #27 do nothing to change my opinion that this ruckus over a garment worn by a miniscule portion of French women is shockingly out of proportion to the issues facing the government.
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Post by komsomol on Jun 25, 2009 20:44:20 GMT
You people seen a chick eating in a niqab?
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Post by imec on Jun 25, 2009 20:51:11 GMT
;D ;D ;D Yep, can see how that would be their "choice".
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Post by patricklondon on Jun 27, 2009 13:45:51 GMT
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Post by bjd on Jul 3, 2009 9:11:17 GMT
There are two interesting editorials on today's IHT op-ed page. One by an American male lawyer saying the French government shouldn't interfere with womens' right to wear the burqa. Another, by an Arab woman who thinks it should be banned.
Let men wear burqas if they are so keen on them.
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Post by imec on Jul 3, 2009 11:49:14 GMT
Anyone know how is the ban working out in Turkey?
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 6, 2009 11:12:40 GMT
I think in Turkey it's just the headscarves that are banned for government employees and schools and universities. Don't know if the burqa is banned, have never seen any in Turkey or in Germany.
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Post by traveler63 on Jul 6, 2009 21:30:55 GMT
bdj: Isn't it ironic, how thru out history, men always seem to have all the answers for women? ?? I am with you, let them wear one of the burkas, Probably 15 minutes and they would be out of them. !!!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2009 21:03:38 GMT
It would indeed be a good idea, assuming that the problem is men being drawn to feminine attractions, to oblige these men to live blindfolded rather than forcing the women to hide themselves. Ropes could be strung through the cities for the men to guide themselves around without being tempted by the women. Of course, just like the women are allowed to dress normally in the privacy of their home, men could take off the blindfolds while working in factories or places like that.
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 9, 2009 7:36:45 GMT
..., to oblige these men to live blindfolded rather than forcing the women to hide themselves. ... Funny thing is that among the Tuareg it's the men who really do run around mostly covered up while it's the women who are less covered.
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Post by imec on Jul 29, 2009 15:13:00 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Jul 29, 2009 15:43:19 GMT
Well, Sudan is a country where "rights" including the right to live at all for people deliberately subjected to starvation, are not an operating concept. I don't think this is really the same issue as the question of whether democratic countries have the right to impose dress codes, though I suppose it is a pertinent comparison.
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Post by imec on Jul 29, 2009 16:01:10 GMT
Just pointing out that this kind of nonsense is prevalent in this kind of country. It pi$$es me off when they get all indignant when comparatively minor restrictions (with MUCH less harsh penalties) are imposed in the western countries they immigrate to. Not saying 2 wrongs make a right but I think this adds necessary context.
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Post by bjd on Jul 30, 2009 9:21:11 GMT
I heard on the radio yesterday that there are fewer than 400 women in France wearing the complete covering. Supposedly they are mostly French-born, urban and doing it by choice.
I wonder how they did their survey? Of course, they''re "urban". There aren't many Muslims living in rural areas of France. And did they count the women who aren't allowed to go out?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 17:50:20 GMT
Actually Paris Match had an interesting article a week or two ago about the burka women. A number of them are converts and for them it is absolute burka porn -- they got a nearly orgasmic thrill the first time they went out in public under wraps, and their desire to keep wearing one is not because it makes them invisible but because of all of the attention they get.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 30, 2009 20:03:13 GMT
I'm not surprised in the least. I've taught women like that (though they weren't in burkas) - there is a reason one speaks about the zeal of the converted.
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 31, 2009 7:19:05 GMT
I'm not surprised in the least. I've taught women like that (though they weren't in burkas) - there is a reason one speaks about the zeal of the converted. The zeal of the converted.Don't start me on that...
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Post by tigronette on Aug 3, 2009 9:31:53 GMT
I agree with Kirsten Schaal who said we should launch a campaign to ban high heels and bulimia instead...
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Post by lagatta on Aug 3, 2009 12:09:56 GMT
Indeed those are far more widespread. Who is Kirsten Schaal?
a) how does one define "high heels"?
b) good luck banning an eating disorder...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2009 17:07:08 GMT
Yesterday while driving my mother around, I saw some burkas that I had not seen before in front of the Eiffel Tower. Generally burkas are completely black, sometimes with a silver mask on top for some of the well-off Qatari and Kuwaiti women.
These women were in black but the veils on their heads were different colors -- one was green, one was blue, one was red and one was purple. They were diligently following their man around -- he was in shorts and flip flops. Either they are from a region that I have not encountered before or their husband has found this method to be able to tell them apart when they are out in public. "Red, you carry my packages! Purple, give me a cigarette! Blue, go get me some ice cream!"
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Post by lagatta on Aug 3, 2009 18:20:34 GMT
There are few things that infuriate me more than seeing a woman in full hijab - or burka - with her husband in shorts and flip-flops. To be fair usually the men are modestly-dressed as well, but that makes it clear that it is a question of subjugation and not piety.
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Post by imec on Aug 3, 2009 18:26:37 GMT
I've seen Saudis on the beach in swimsuits while their women were in head to toe abayas - in the water!! They looked like trained seals.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2009 18:42:28 GMT
On the beach in Alexandria, Egypt, I saw the men frolicking in speedos while the women wallowed in large dripping veils.
Meanwhile, I went to a private beach in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and the women were in bikinis -- because the private beaches have very tall walls around them.
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Post by tigronette on Aug 4, 2009 8:30:44 GMT
Lagatta,
You live in Montreal, right? You speak as if you see this kind of thing regularly. Is this a common occurance where you are ?
(in France, current estimate stands at around 500 people country-wide so it does exist but isn't that common)
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Post by lagatta on Aug 4, 2009 11:36:35 GMT
tigronette, I was speaking of women in HIJAB, not with their faces hidden. They were wearing hijabs (headscarves that cover all their hair, similar to the veils nuns wore here when I was a child) and long, usually loose garments. The French estimate is about women who cover their faces. The figure would be even lower here, remembering that we have a fraction of France's population (about 7 million in Québec) and there are fewer Muslims or people of Muslim origin, culture or heritage (who of course may not be religious Muslims and I know several who are not religious at all).
The women I saw covered with men in shorts were not in hijab. I have seen very, very few here. They are more common in another neighbourhood not far from mine where there are more South Asian and I believe some Afghan people. I don't think they are culturally rooted in South Asia, but everyone knows about the recent rise in fundamentalism - even violent fundamentalism as in the Mumbai attacks - in that region of the world.
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Post by imec on Aug 4, 2009 12:42:00 GMT
I see lots of hijabs here in Winnipeg (saw one recently on a girl recently in tight jeans and somewhat see-through blouse - ridiculous)- and the despicable burka or niqab is starting to rear it's ugly head (I tell my kids they're bank robbers).
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