France: the burka is back (by K2)

[mich64]

I think the law will be used when political events are happening. This way the police/military will not have to be concerned with people covered up and if they are, they will have legal reason for removing them just in case they were a real threat. It is a reasonable request, for example at events here you are not allowed to bring in backpacks.

I am concerned for the women who may be ordered by their husbands to wear them in spite of the law. Also, after all these years of being covered up, how will these women adjust to, what they may feel, of exposing themselves, it could be psychologically harmful to them.

[bjd]

Well, if you look at this report:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13031397

the whole action was obviously planned in advance. I mean, look how many photographers there are waiting for her. "hey, folks, I'm going to not only wear a shroud, I'm going to provoke as much as possible!"

[Deleted]

And here I thought the whole point of such attire was not to draw attention to yourself.

[lagatta]

There are Muslims who condemn such a display of being holier than thou for that precise reason. (The same criticisms have often been made in the other Monotheisms).

I know at least one devout Muslim lady from Tunisia who stopped wearing the hijab here for that exact reason. She adopted it in reaction to what she saw as the hypocritical "regime secularism" (as in Turkey) but later saw it as impediment as being seen as just another mum and neighbour - she is active in neighbourhood associations, which is why I know her. She dresses in a very modest manner, but no more hijab - though in the wintertime here, that is not a great difference!

[rikita]

i must admit i only read the first page of this thread, so i am not even sure if maybe i posted in here before... but okay this is what comes to my mind:

- let's say, a woman is indeed forced not to leave the house without a burka, by her husband - i do suppose that is the case for quite a few of those that wear them - then, what will happen if the burka is allowed? is it more likely she will be allowed to go outside without one, or she will not be allowed to leave the house at all anymore? somehow, i think the latter.

- i do in general notice that the whole discussion about islam, at least the one taking place in germany, very often uses women's rights as an excuse - but at the same time seems to punish the women more than the men. they are the ones that get bad looks because they were "different" clothes (in most case just head scarfs, i see someone with a burka or similar maybe once a month at most here), often get refused jobs because of it (which seems weird to me - isn't working a sign of not being completely dependent anymore?) - if someone has to get punished, and the argument is that something is a symbol of oppression of women, then shouldn't it be the men that get punished?

- considering how few women indeed wear a burka, i think very much the whole big deal made out of it is a plot by certain politicians to use current tendencies to get more votes. it seems like actionism, like they are doing something... and it is a good way to keep the discussion in one direction and keep it from another. i remember reading an article (unfortunately i can't find it now) about some law that theoretically would have been really unpopular but was passed almost unnoticed in france, when everyone was discussing the burka-law instead...

- banning items of clothing is fighting symptoms. i don't personally know people who wear burkas, but from other pieces of clothing i know that the woman who wears more traditional clothes isn't necessarily the one that is more oppressed, less educated, etc. - i don't think banning a piece of clothing does one thing to help against the issues i would find more important, like access to education, the right to chose whether a woman wants to stay with her husband, being treated as an equal etc. ...

- the discussion of banning the burka probably if anything made it more popular, like a sign of defiance. and it probably increases a feeling of "us against them" between muslims and non-muslims.

[onlymark]

"if someone has to get punished, and the argument is that something is a symbol of oppression of women, then shouldn't it be the men that get punished?"

From what I remember of the French law it actually is then men who would be punished far worse than the women.

[Deleted]

The fine for a woman is 150€. The fine for a man obliging a woman to wear a niqab or burqa can be as high as 60,000€ (and 1 year in prison).

[rikita]

i see... so the men do get punished more, that i do approve of.

but that seems a bit theoretic - it's far easier to prove a woman is wearing a burka than to prove a man is obliging her to wear one... even if the woman says her husband forced her, if he says no it's word against word, isn't it?

[Deleted]

Nobody contests the fact that the law is very difficult to enforce. But if it just scares the shit out of some of the manipulators, it will have succeeded. For example, any imam who claims that it is "Islamic law" to wear a burqa in his daily or weekly sermon can get in deep shit. The polls show that most of the Muslims in France fully support the law, but most of them cannot say so openly since anti-Islamic ideology clearly inspired too many of the lawmakers.

[rikita]

hm... if i understand this right then, that means the problem of polarization due to that law remains, though? so anti-islamism does stand behind the law, whehter the outcome (i.e. the law itself) is good or bad?

[lagatta]

Ultraorthodox Jewish burkas: www.forward.com/articles/137102/ (from the Jewish Chronicle, UK, via the Forward, NYC).

Yes, it is a can of worms.

[Deleted]

There was an article in today's Sunday newspaper about the effects of the law so far. They interviewed 4 women. Three of them have changed to the hijab without great difficulty even though it felt "weird" at first. One of them had adopted the niqab 8 years ago and felt sort of naked the first week. The 4th woman continues to wear the niqab in public, defying the law. She says she has been to the police station more than once to do administrative chores and has removed her covering while there but has just received a "tsk tsk" from the police when she puts it back on as she leaves.

If that is representative of all of the women, I would say that a 75% success rate is not bad.

[bjd]

This article about the Haredi Jewish women being modest once more confirms my idea that any kind of fanaticism is crazy and dangerous. It seems to be female-driven for the time being, but there is certainly a community psychology behind it.

If these men have such problems with "immodest" women, I suggest they walk around with blindfolds. And all submit to vasectomies at puberty so that they are not "tempted" to produce so many children.

[Deleted]

There is an official government site for the law: www.visage-decouvert.gouv.fr/

[Deleted]

From Reuters:

MADRID: Spain’s Supreme Court has overturned the city of Lleida’s ban on women wearing full-face veils — such as burqas or niqabs — in public buildings, citing religious freedom and saying the city’s argument of security concerns was unfounded.

In its ruling, dated Feb. 14 and made public on Thursday, the court said the ban could increase discrimination, rather than help eliminate it, as it may force some women to stay at home and therefore not integrate at all into Spanish society.

The city, known as Lleida in the Catalan language and Lerida in Spanish, had argued that immigrants would struggle to integrate if they used the veil. The city also said the custom would disturb the local culture and create security problems.

Lleida banned the wearing of full-face veils in public buildings three years ago, about the same time that rules against veils in France and Belgium set off controversy.

Barcelona and other cities in Catalonia followed with similar bans on full-face veils, which are rarely seen in Spain, home to about 1.6 million Muslims. It was not immediately clear whether the Lleida ruling would apply to those cities also.

The case against Lleida — all of whose justifications for the ban were ruled unfounded — was brought by the Watani Liberty and Justice Association.

Spain has no national law on religious garb.

[bjd]

Watani Liberty and Justice Association

When I see names like this, I assume they preach neither liberty nor justice. Just like any country with the name "democratic" in its title certainly isn't.

[Deleted]

Here is a new Canadian twist on the subject of accepting religious garb.

Oshawa hospital uses Quebec controversy as recruitment tool

[patricklondon]

Some to-ing and fro-ing in the UK as well:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24072854

But that's partly to do with schools managements' idiotic power-trippery over clothing and uniforms and the like, not mention elf'n'safety. There was a school that tried to stop a pupil wearing, not a veil or headscarf, but a particularly long and flowing dress because they said it would be a safety risk in science lessons. The whole thing went to court, they caved in and there's been no report of any accidents since, AFAIK.

[Deleted]

I see that in today's Swiss referendum, face covering garb has been banned in the Tessin region.

[Deleted]

Here is some interesting information on the subject from the Islamic world.

[Deleted]

Today, the European Court of Human Rights validated the French law against full veils once and for all.

www.thelocal.fr/20140701/face-veil-ban-france-court

[Deleted]

Having worked for one of the most conservative Muslim countries in the world for 35 years, I am still always interested in their reaction to what is happening in France. Sometimes, it is a bit surprising.

imageshack.com/a/img840/607/mlni.jpg

imageshack.com/a/img840/733/sv0y.jpg

Of course, I am well aware that the locals who read an English language newspaper in that country are rarely the most conservative citizens.

[Deleted]

So, what has happened in the world since this thread fell asleep?

Chad banned the niqab and the burka on 17 June 2015. Nigeria and Cameroon have also banned it. In Gabon, anybody wearing one is stopped and checked by the police since 14 July 2015. Actually, this just came to my attention since Senegal banned the niqab and the burka this week.

The fact that these Muslim countries think there is a problem is very interesting, compared to the tolerance in the United Kingdom or the United States.

[lagatta]

That is very interesting. There has been a similar controversy in Canada. Many people in Québec who are anything but xenophobes have been suspect because of their criticism of niqab. (Of course there are also bigots who hate it because they hate "other" people).

Even Québec solidaire, the most left party in the Quebec National Assembly, says government services should be provided and received "à visage ouvert" - with one's face exposed.

There are very, very few women here who wear niqab or burkas. In my neighbourhood (where there are some Maghrebi and Levantine women who wear headscarves) they are utterly unknown. I have seen very, very few women in the neighbourhood west of here where there are some people from South and Central Asia, wearing niqab.

[Deleted]

Ther are quite a few women wearing the niqab living in Yaletown in downtown Vancouver. I mostly see them walking with their husbands or children. It was quite jarring to see this this summer when it was so hot; their husbands would be in shorts and tshirts and flip-flops, and the ladies in unrelieved black.

[bjd]

Jun 19, 2009 16:46:15 GMT bjd said:

I heard that too, Kerouac. She's obviously a nut case. I would really like to know if somewhere in the Koran it actually says that women have to cover themselves completely. Didn't she mention something about women having to be modest to prevent tempting men? In that case, it's the men who have the problem.

Personally, I figure that if it were the men preaching this stuff who had to dress like that, it would disappear in no time. I get really annoyed to see guys dressed in short sleeved shirts on a hot day, accompanied by a woman in head to toe black polyester.

I said this in June 2009 and still think so.

[Deleted]

On a related subject, there is currently a raging debate at Air France, which is supposed to resume service to Iran starting April 17th. However, Iran demands that all women wear a veil when leaving the aircraft. Skirts are forbidden as well, so the women must wear a long tunic over slacks. Although it might be pointed out that not even Saudi Arabia requires such a thing concerning foreign women, obviously Iran has the right to apply its own laws on its own territory.

While Air France claims that they will use only volunteers on this route, any time an employee declines to fly a certain route, it is considered to be a "refusal of mission" and carries a penalty of 1/30th of the salary. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[lagatta]

Iran certainly does not forbid skirts, but the long skirts the country would accept would be unsafe for a flight attendant. Yes, this story is front page here.

[Deleted]

It appears that Air France has relented and will not penalise female employees who decline to fly that route.

[whatagain]

My wife has declared that she would never go to such countries imposing her to wear a veil. So I won't.