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Post by Jazz on Aug 4, 2009 16:39:48 GMT
Last week we were shooting exteriors in the St. Jamestown area of Toronto and I saw many women wearing full burqa. This is relatively common in certain areas of Toronto and there is certainly no government effort to ban them. Aware of this thread, I began to read about Muslims in Canada and was rather startled. While our Muslim population is low relative to France, about 65% of our Muslims live in Ontario and Toronto has the highest Muslim concentration of any city in North America, now about 7%. www.soundvision.com/info/muslims/muslimsincanada.aspMuslims have a vital presence here in Toronto and this is their website, www.torontomuslims.com/ ...which is quite fascinating. Two French viewpoints: 'The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. It is a problem of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France.', Sarkozy.I think this is presumptuous, since Sarkozy is neither a woman nor a Muslim. Within the Muslim female population, I am sure that there are many levels of feelings about wearing a burka. 'To raise the issue like this, via parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatizing Islam and the Muslims of France', Mohhammed Moussaoui, the head of the French Council for Muslim Religion.I don't think that the French government (any goverment) should be interfering in one particular religion. Historically, this kind of interference (focusing on one religious group) leads to disaster, and, it usually starts in very small ways. The Jewish situation in France in the years leading up to and during WW2, is one example. I would not like to be forced to wear a burka. I think some women choose this and some do not. It is an issue that could be approached within each Muslim community and individual family. I doubt that legislation at the highest levels of government would be at all effective in a positive way.
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Post by imec on Aug 12, 2009 23:00:17 GMT
Actually Paris Match had an interesting article a week or two ago about the burka women. A number of them are converts and for them it is absolute burka porn -- they got a nearly orgasmic thrill the first time they went out in public under wraps, and their desire to keep wearing one is not because it makes them invisible but because of all of the attention they get. k, here's a story about one of your converts... ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090812/world/eu_france_burquini_banned
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Post by lagatta on Aug 13, 2009 1:32:24 GMT
Yeah, I'm reading this in the Guardian.
But I can see this as problematic: The local authorities in Emerainville said the case had nothing to do with Islam, but regulations stated that garments bigger than standard swimsuits, including men's board-shorts, could not be worn in pools for hygiene reasons.
Certainly in favour of hygiene, but there are many reasons (age, weight, deformity, etc) that people might not want to be seen by others in "standard swimsuits", although they could certainly benefit from healthy exercise.
Some of the women I know who wear hijab, or not, and are simply uncomfortable with revealing so much skin, swim at our local "Jewish Y" (YHMA), as Orthodox Jewish women have similar concerns. And quite a few secular women do as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2009 4:32:21 GMT
The person who invented the 'burkini' term should be slapped until his teeth fall out.
The main comment that was made in France was that nobody can understand how a proper Islamic woman can accept to go to a public swimming pool full of almost naked men. It is in flagrant contradiction with her values.
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Post by hwinpp on Aug 13, 2009 8:51:17 GMT
;D ;D ;D Good one!
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Post by bjd on Aug 13, 2009 12:52:25 GMT
I thought of this thread when I saw the news brief in today's paper. I wasn't surprised that the woman is a convert. Why does she, and those like her, decide to adopt a specific lifestyle and then demand that everybody conform to what she wants?
Our local swimming pool won't allow board shorts, women have to wear bathing caps to keep hair out of the filters, so a full body bathing suit...?
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Post by lagatta on Aug 13, 2009 13:30:12 GMT
The Jewish "Y" I was referring to has men-only and women-only swimming times. I don't know whether there is also a "mixte" swimming time - not all the members of the association are Orthodox by any means. It does seem very strange that a hijabi would swim in a pool with unrelated men, especially men in speedos.
Indeed it sounds like the kind of mixture of zealotry and lack of in-depth cultural knowledge one often finds among converts to any religion.
In Muslim lands and communities (even the Paris Mosque) there are hammams where people are very undressed indeed, and not at all ashamed to be. Those simply segregate the sexes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2009 16:57:48 GMT
I had to smile today on the Champs Elysées as I watched two tourist women in burkas looking and laughing at the annual summer Paris municipal posters about sexually transmitted diseases. This year the theme is "Man's Best Friend" and "Woman's Best Friend" -- the posters show a man or a woman walking a gigantic erect condom on a leash.
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Post by imec on Aug 13, 2009 19:17:27 GMT
Yes! I saw those in Paris kerouac - hilarious!
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Post by imec on Oct 8, 2009 21:09:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 21:16:27 GMT
An Egyptian imam visiting a university in Cairo last week asked that one of the students remove her burka and then went into a speech about how the burka is a traditional garment among certain tribes, but it has nothing to do with Islam.
The Egyptian government is very worried about this, because something like 18% of the female population is now wearing burkas under salafist influence. 10 years ago, it was only 1%.
I am afraid that I will be verifying this myself soon, because it appears that I am returning to Cairo for a week next month.
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Post by fumobici on Oct 8, 2009 23:33:02 GMT
Odd to me that burqas are as far as I can tell unheard of in the US where their wear would almost certainly be unambiguously protected by the Bill of Rights. It suggests to me that France has a fundamental assimilation and integration problem that the US does not or at least does only to a lesser degree.
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Post by hwinpp on Oct 9, 2009 11:01:31 GMT
Would burkas make it through the patriot act?
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 9, 2009 18:43:50 GMT
As I understand it, in France it's generally considered that formal equality as a citizen under the law guarantees integration (so it's totally beyond the pale to seek to identify people by their ethnic or cultural origins, even for the purpose of identifying and combatting discrimination). But as a citizen you're also expected to assimilate culturally to the notion of French republican values, whereas in the US, it's perfectly possible to be a hyphenated American, in a way official France would consider suspect in its own citizens.
But I may be wrong...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2010 15:06:56 GMT
I was reading the article on the CNN site about the impending legislation in France to ban the burka and niqab in public spaces (except for the street), but what really got me were the 'sponsored links' at the bottom of the page: How to Convert to IslamHow to convert and become a Muslim with Live Help by chat www.IslamReligion.comMeet Muslim GirlsMeet Muslim girl for marriage. Video Chat. Date women free now! www.Qiran4Muslims.comMuslim Dating & MarriageFind Muslim girls & Muslim women. Thousand of photos. Join Free now! www.Muslima2Muslim.com
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Post by bjd on Jan 26, 2010 18:01:24 GMT
About half an hour ago I heard an interesting interview with an anthropologist about the full veil business. She said the French have raised the wrong debate -- not that it should be linked to Islam, but rather why do young people and converts get so involved in these extreme, sectarian issues. Why do they try to retreat from society? Why are they so easily influenced by these radical ideas they find on the internet? Why has a sect like the Salafists, who were non-existent in France 10 years ago, gained such influence?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2010 18:08:43 GMT
Walking to the nursing home today, I passed a young woman in a burka. Actually, she was dressed in 'standard' Islamic garb but with a total black veil thrown over her head, hiding even her eyes. Since she was wearing the gloves and everything, I couldn't even tell her origin. She was walking along agressively as though daring the world (or at least French society) to challenge her. Walking right behind her were two African girls dressed like Lady Gaga with pink and green fluorescent hair extensions.
There is a fundamentalist Islamic prayer room for women nearby, and I have regularly seen such women leaving it, but most of them are black African.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 26, 2010 18:53:38 GMT
Sounds like a car accident waiting to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2010 17:30:52 GMT
I thought that this was an excellent non-racist pictogram which would be adequate to keep niqabs and burqas out of a bank agency.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2010 19:33:54 GMT
I have started counting niqabs in Paris (I almost never see a burqa, except on some tourists during the summer).
Last week I saw two niqabs -- one with her master in jeans and T-shirt with a fashionable scruffy face, and a second one with her family: her master and 3 'normal' children, including 2 girls in flashy pink trousers and bright trainers.
Today I saw a tourist lady in a niqab, but the tourists are rarely as extreme as the locals. This one actually had obscene naked hands instead of the obligatory black gloves. Her master was wearing a parka and woolen scarf. Her own warm clothing, in any, apparently needed to be concealed under the black robes.
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Post by fumobici on Feb 22, 2010 22:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2010 22:43:18 GMT
More obscene naked fingers! What is wrong with these hussies?
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Post by bjd on Feb 23, 2010 8:07:44 GMT
They're wearing sandals too!
I do rather wonder why he bothers taking a picture -- years from now, nobody will be able to tell who they are anyway.
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Post by gertie on Mar 11, 2010 8:53:04 GMT
In 2004, the French parliament passed legislation banning Muslim girls from wearing headscarves in state schools, prompting widespread Muslim protests. The law also banned other conspicuous religious symbols including Sikh turbans, large Christian crucifixes and Jewish skull caps. I don't see the burka thing as any sort of desire to go after one religion, but rather the extension of a desire to allow a public the right to be any or none as they choose without fear of any one in any way intimidating, encouraging, or discouraging.
Ok from my standpoint, as long as it is everyone, I'm good with it. No burkas, no turbans, no big ol crucifixes, no skull caps in the schools because you are here to learn, not to flaunt your religion.
I don't think schools or pools should be asked to change their rules for any group.
From a more personal standpoint, I'm flat out against burkas, which you do see a lot of in certain areas of Dallas metro in recent years. I think they should be outlawed just on basis of security issues from beginning. I think it was a bad idea for Sarkozy and company to bring subjugation of women into it, not that I disagree at all with what they have to say about that, but because that's just giving wriggle room for a debate. In the current global situation, security should be the first concern of national government. That said, I think the end result will probably be these women trapped more than ever in their homes as that will effectively be the only area they can wear those darn things, and perhaps a few private schools. I'm still completely against any government supporting them.
One other comment, it was clear to me from the beginning the families of most of these girls in the schools must not be very fundamentalist, if they were the girls would never be in public schools and certainly not as teens, when they should already be at home married, barefoot and pregnant.
Sorry, I am just very passionate about these things. I had a girlfriend some years ago who's family was in the this country because of her father's expertise in a certain area. The family was not fundamentalist and they attended school with us, sans head gear. All was well until the son of another man who came to this country without their knowing saw her at of all things a camp rally from a Christian camp she attended with me. Ohhhh yeah. Immediately he received notice to get his fanny and his family back there. The family endured years of persecution, but my friend was lucky enough to get a husband who was understanding. Her sister was not so lucky and was flamed by her husband. He considerately waited until she had given birth to his son, then lit her up 26 hours later, but she did not immediately die. She spent 6 days in a burn unit before dying in agony. In her pain, she did accuse him of burning her. I was told he told the cop who apologetically came to ask his mother had instructed him to do so because of the progressive views she expressed to her, and the cop understandingly patted his arm and left. He then demanded money for the care of the son she'd saddled him with from her family, saying they should pay as they had failed to raise her properly.
I won't say more as I would hate for her to be identified by anything I say. She hopes someday to return to the US, but so far the government refuses to give her proper papers, though her husband has come here twice, bringing me letters and pictures from her. (that was before 9/11, I haven't heard anything since then, I really am not sure whether that is their government or ours)
Modified to fix some typos and clarify
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2010 10:21:43 GMT
There have been a number of horrible stories like that, gertie, and sometimes they even happen in Europe. In France, there have been murders, disifigurations and yes, even burnings in certain communities, but what is somewhat strange to me is that when one hears of this, it usually concerns Turkish immigrants.
I wonder: why would that be? Turkey is "almost European" in many ways, has banned the veil and promotes as many progressive values as possible. When I see a Turkish television station on cable, it is indistinguishable from its European counterparts. And yet it is the Turkish families which react the most violently when their daughter turns out to be modern and Europeanized. And this doesn't even concern wearing a veil, a niqab or a burka -- it is just the concept of the girl having a European (or even an Arab) boyfriend and going out to have fun instead of staying home. As you can imagine, the Turkish boys have total freedom to do whatever they want.
Is it simply because Turkish girls become more easily Europeanized and there are more cases of this just because of greater numbers of liberated daughters? Is there an authoritarian streak in Turkish families that the Maghrebi families do not have? (In many Maghrebi cases, the families might disown the daughter, but they would not harm her physically.) I find it very confusing.
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 11, 2010 14:43:26 GMT
Kerouac, I think the situations you describe might be extreme examples of individual reactions to their own immigration.
There must be ambivalence in the heart of every immigrant in the sense that assimilation could feel like a certain loss of self and/or rejection of ones heritage.
The strength of identification with "roots" can easily be seen in the US, where people two or more generations removed from the parent country still proudly cling to some of its customs or at least food, and call themselves hyphenated Americans. This could well be passed down from the generation who immigrated and who did not want to "forget who they were".
I don't think those of us in anyport who live in countries different from the ones on our original passports could have anywhere near the same internal conflicts as would people who felt forced by politics or economics to leave their homelands. I'm hardly a sociologist, but the excessive reactions you describe in the French Turkish community smack strongly of the sort of sick dynamic in a family wherein one child is abused because he's become the scapegoat for everything else that might be wrong. In the cases you cite, perhaps the buried fears and guilts of the immigrant parents are projected on to their assimilated daughters.
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Post by gertie on Mar 20, 2010 4:16:25 GMT
The situation I describe does not involve anyone from Turkey, just to clarify, but I have read a lot about certain issues related to what happened to my friend's sister. I do think sometimes, such as in France with the children of Turkish immigrants, a part of the equation is just the flat out rapidity of change coupled with parental worries and some desperation. As a parent of a teen, I know how worrisome it can be dealing with teens.
I did some reading up on the burka issue, and I am sorry I did not save links. From what I read, a whole lot of these burka-wearing chicks in France are either 1) new converts - mom and dad were not Muslims or 2) the children of parents who would never think of asking them to wear a burka, and in fact it is not unusual for these to be the children of women who were happy to leave their burkas behind when they left their country of origin.
It seems in the case of the kids a lot are being rather coerced into it by boys their own age of their own nationality sexually harassing them if they don't wear them and then it upsets their parents, so it seems like a win-win to them to start wearing them. I also read a large Canadian Muslim group is encouraging France to ban burkas. Now to be frank, if your mother doesn't want you to do it but a teen boy does, I'm going to go with it's a bad idea, so that covers the kiddos. As for the adult converts, so do not get that. The only way you'd get a burka on me is to put it on my cold, dead body.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 6:16:36 GMT
I saw something in the press the other day about Québec considering an anti-veil law, but I don't know if anything will come of it.
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Post by spindrift on Mar 20, 2010 13:40:40 GMT
I was married to a Muslim so perhaps I know something about the role of a man in family life. The man is in complete control of his household. It is men (not imans) who decree that women's faces and hair are covered so that other men cannot look upon them and desire them Women are thought to be weak-willed creatures with a predisposition to liking sex therefore the women must be controlled and safe-guarded from themselves. Only a man may gaze upon his wife. Even the man's brothers cannot see her face. Sometimes a woman never even unveils herself for her husband. In this case she would be wearing a leather-type mask over her features and she would wear it 24/7. The burka has been put in place by men in order to control women; it's as simple as that. A woman's role in the house is in the kitchen and the bedroom - to give a man sons.
Not nice is it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 19:53:21 GMT
And yet some women defend this, just like I heard an African woman defend sexual mutilation once. She said that it empowers women, because when they no longer have any access to sexual pleasure, the men cannot control them with sex anymore.
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