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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 16, 2009 17:26:44 GMT
I am always startled when educated people use bad grammar. Startled enough to realize I must do it as well. What prompted this was reading a sentence on another site: Myself and other staff members can't seem to find ........This is wrong, and very common, so I googled "myself" and found this: www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/myself.html. (click on the blue text at the bottom of that page to be taken to a grammatical playground) I feel Brian of Brian's Errors over-complicates figuring out the rule for which pronoun to use. For instance, it's common to hear "between he and I", which is wrong. Were the speaker to mentally substitute the plural pronoun -- "between us" vs. "between we", he/she would instantly know that the object forms of the pronouns were correct. More on that here: grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/between-you-and-me.aspx. I thought it would be nice to have a thread for our worried, confused, pedantic, or picky grammar questions. *hopes desperately that there are no glaring grammatical errors in the above*
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 21, 2009 13:41:10 GMT
Punctuation question here:
I was replying to a post and realized I was stymied by where to put an apostrophe.
Here is the sentence:
It looks like one of the Dutch masters' paintings.
As you see, I opted for the apostrophe after the s, but should it go before it instead?
Feel free to comment upon looks like, as well. I use this construction all the time but am not sure whether it's proper English or not.
Thanks!
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Post by bjd on Jul 21, 2009 14:21:00 GMT
Where you put the apostrophe depends on whether you are considering plural or singular masters. If you only mean Van Gogh as "the Dutch master", then it should be master's. If you mean one of the paintings done by several painters known as the Dutch masters, then the apostrophe goes where you put it: masters'.
"Looks like" sounds fine to me. Why don't you like it?
I think the "for him and I" stuff comes from people over-correcting because they are not sure and they think it sounds fancier. Of course, it's wrong.
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Post by livaco on Jul 21, 2009 14:34:30 GMT
Definitely after the "s". You wouldn't say "it looked like a painting of one of the Dutch master."
The other day I noticed these two signs at a department store: WOMEN'S (in the women's department -- all well and good), and GIRL'S. ARRGGHH!! So the clothes for women are for all women, but the clothes for girls are for only one girl? Which girl?
But on the same day I noticed that a billboard that had always driven me crazy had actually been fixed. It had said ATOMICKATZ - Vintage at it's finest. And someone had gotten rid of the (incorrect) apostrophe. It made me very happy. As you may be able to tell, correct apostrophe use is something near and dear to my heart. :-)
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Post by livaco on Jul 21, 2009 14:37:29 GMT
I posted mine before reading bjd's post. She's right; it could mean a painting by someone who's thought of as "the Dutch master". I don't know why I didn't see that at first.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 21, 2009 14:56:31 GMT
Thanks to you both. What was throwing me was the word "one" followed by the modifier "of the etc."
Bjd, I do like "looks like", but I'm capable of blithely using a regionalism without realizing that it's not standard English. "Fixing to" is so firmly entrenched in the word-use part of my brain, that I have trouble accepting its lowly non-standard status.
Ha, Livaco ~~ that stuff makes me crazy, too. The parking lot in front of the high school in Port Isabel, Texas sported a sign that said "Parent's Parking". Guess that kept those pesky parents from crowding in together at the school.
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Post by livaco on Jul 21, 2009 16:27:55 GMT
There is a group called The Typo Eradication Advancement League (TEAL ) who go around fixing mistakes on signs. I'm not quite brave enough to climb a ladder with white paint, but the other day I did rub out an extraneous apostrophe that was written on a sign with chalk. laughingsquid.com/the-typo-eradication-advancement-league-teal/
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 17:02:17 GMT
I can't prevent myself from correcting or circling errors on notices or posters.
Slowly but surely, I am losing my English since I only use it in places like this. What is really odd at the office, even though nobody wants to consider me as at least half French (just like nobody seems to say that Obama is half white) is that I am nevertheless considered to be the authority on French spelling and grammar.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 21, 2009 17:22:36 GMT
You seem to have plenty of English left, Kerouac. I don't think I could ever lose my English because I have enough opportunity to speak it. However, it's funny how the brain works with language. More than once I've caught myself saying "I let it fall" -- a direct translation from Spanish -- rather than "I dropped it", which should be more natural to me. There is a similar thing that takes place with educated speakers, in that they can lapse into the rhythms, slang, and common grammatical errors of their "home speech" when back on their natal ground.
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gyllenhaalic
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Post by gyllenhaalic on Jul 21, 2009 18:44:24 GMT
"I feel Brian of Brian's Errors over-complicates figuring out the rule for which pronoun to use. For instance, it's common to hear "between he and I", which is wrong. Were the speaker to mentally substitute the plural pronoun -- "between us" vs. "between we", he/she would instantly know that the object forms of the pronouns were correct" I simply mentally ask myself, "Is it 'between him or between he' that is correct and 'between I or between me' that is correct. Since I have music blasting in my ears and am having a funny conversation with my employee as I type this, feel free to correct any errors I have made.
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Post by spindrift on Jul 21, 2009 20:46:34 GMT
I had no idea that Obama is half white I suppose he must be if Kerouac says so.
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Post by lola on Jul 21, 2009 21:19:50 GMT
It sounds odd when people refer to Obama as 'black,', since he has merely a sallow complexion. Shorthand for a complicated family tree, I guess.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 21, 2009 22:27:43 GMT
His own family tree is not very complicated as his dad was a Kenyan from a region where I don't think there was much mixture with the Brits, and his mum seems to have been about as white as one can be in the Americas (where many "whites" have Aboriginal and African blood). Obama's family is complex indeed though, as his younger sister is half Indonesian, and there are people of just about every colour known to humankind in the extended family.
Getting back to grammar, Lynn Truss wrote a book, Eats, Shoots and Leaves - all about punctuation!
There are two ways of punctuating the following sentence - very different meanings:
A woman without her man is nothing
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 22, 2009 1:52:47 GMT
Thanks for getting this back on track, LaGatta!A woman, without her man, is nothing. A woman: without her, man is nothing.
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 22, 2009 2:22:41 GMT
A woman without: her man is nothing. To get the thread slightly off track again, my English is slowly coming back! The 20 odd years I spent in Germany weren't good. The only person I spoke English with was my mother, not that often. At least I read nearly exclusively English books. When I meet Anglo friends here I find myself looking for colloquial words, it's a bit unnerving sometimes. As for when I meet my francophone friends, even worse. At least I don't have to write it. I see myself losing my German now.
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Post by traveler63 on Jul 22, 2009 2:43:53 GMT
Off the subject, but you all should read Obama's books, yes he is half white. His mother was white and his father was Kenyan. His late grandmother and grandfather lived in Hawaii as he did. He was born in Hawaii. He is truly an interesting person.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 22, 2009 3:23:50 GMT
Grammar. This is a grammar thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 4:53:45 GMT
Yes, Grandma.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 22, 2009 5:10:03 GMT
That's Gramma' to you.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 22, 2009 11:20:48 GMT
Well, this is not a US politics and trivia discussion thread, but I do confess it will be a relief not to hear things like misunderestimated and "putting food on your family" from someone who supposedly has an Ivy League education.
Mémère... remember, it is Kerouac.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 11:44:28 GMT
Unfortunately, Mémère is slowly but surely falling into disuse in most of France, replaced by Mamie in most cases. I think the Walloons still prefer Mémère, however.
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Post by bjd on Jul 22, 2009 13:29:19 GMT
We were just talking about that word yesterday -- thank God it has fallen into disuse.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 23, 2009 0:34:15 GMT
I was only thinking of Mémère because of Kerouac (the writer). It has fallen into disuse here too, except as a pejorative "t'es bien mémère"! (a gossip, fussy, old-fashioned, mumsily-dressed etc). In Québec "mémérer" means "raconter des commérages" - idle gossip. One needn't be a grandmother to do this, or even a woman, or person middle-aged or older.
Mamie is a much more positive word: mamie could be in her 40s, 50s or 60s and exercising a profession or in any case having a life of her own. But of course she enjoys spoiling her granchild or children, without the hard work of parenting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2009 18:34:56 GMT
Jack Kerouac called his mother Mémère, although it is normally the name for grandmother. At least in France.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 24, 2009 0:44:15 GMT
In Québec as well. Perhaps language remained more antiquated though, or took an odd course, in the Franco-American communities of New England? Or was it because she was the matriarch - didn't Kerouac have children, despite his disordered and relatively short life?
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 24, 2009 2:58:30 GMT
There is now a thread about this very topic so that it won't derail the grammar thread any longer. (about words used for grandparents, not about Kerouac's private life)
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Post by auntieannie on Feb 8, 2012 11:34:11 GMT
The other day I noticed these two signs at a department store: WOMEN'S (in the women's department -- all well and good), and GIRL'S. ARRGGHH!! So the clothes for women are for all women, but the clothes for girls are for only one girl? Which girl? I used to see that type of errors in continental europe and had always assumed it was lack of understanding of the english language. However, I have now seen boards in english shops saying "WOMENS" and "MENS" (no apstrophe) my heart screamed, my soul withered. bixabella... I did see that cartoon. hehe! ;D
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Post by mickthecactus on Feb 8, 2012 13:48:43 GMT
The other day I noticed these two signs at a department store: WOMEN'S (in the women's department -- all well and good), and GIRL'S. ARRGGHH!! So the clothes for women are for all women, but the clothes for girls are for only one girl? Which girl? I used to see that type of errors in continental europe and had always assumed it was lack of understanding of the english language. However, I have now seen boards in english shops saying "WOMENS" and "MENS" (no apstrophe) my heart screamed, my soul withered. bixabella... I did see that cartoon. hehe! ;D That apstrophe has a lot to answer for...........
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Feb 8, 2012 15:39:02 GMT
My education is sadly lacking. As a girl I moved classes half way through the first year of secondary school, the class I moved to had already covered basic grammar and the class I moved from was full of children destined to be factory fodder.....therefore it wasn't thought necessary to waste time teaching them such things. I get by although I realise that I make lots of mistakes. I did quite well at school, college and university... but I think that there was a period of time (70s and 80s) where spelling and grammar were considered by the authorities to be of less significance than they should have been. I now think that grammar is jolly important. I'm quite embarrassed by my lack of skills....
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Post by auntieannie on Feb 8, 2012 15:51:15 GMT
oh, cheery! don't let anyone embarrass you for your lack of skills. Not even yourself.
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