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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 30, 2009 20:19:01 GMT
What do you suppose a wedding of that size and style (I guess is the word), costs? Seeing as it is such a family and community event I imagine it's not nearly as obscene an amount of money as so many U.S. weddings. Does the bride's family take care of it as most families traditionally do here? The cost of these parties is a subject of great interest to the foreigners here. They are defrayed in part by the "tequio" method that prevails in rural communities. This is analogous to the barn raisings or quilting bees that took place in the US and Canada when those countries were being settled. In other words, you provide a service or pay for something now, and can expect others to do the same for you at some future time. You can be asked to be a madrina (godmother) or padrino (godfather) for a certain thing. For instance, the couple next to the bride and groom at the cutting of the cake were the padrinos (godparents) of the cake, meaning they obtained and paid for it. This can wind up expanding the guest list, too. I once declined an invitation to a 15th birthday celebration (very big deal here) because I did not know the girl nor her family. The friend who invited me urged me to come, explaining that it was okay because my friend's daughter was the madrina. In that case the daughter was the real baptismal godmother to the girl and was absorbing much of the cost for a big party. You can see that it can be a hardship for people who've only been asked to foot the bill for a small portion of a party. The lady in the pink pinafore holding the basket on her head in the first picture of the men dancing the chest is another friend & former neighbor of mine. She once confided to me that buying the chickens she was expected to provide for a particular family event was a real hardship for her. I can well imagine! That was fun . almost like being there. My only concern is were the turkeys hurt? My parents were born in italy and at weddings it is common for two women to dance together. I've been invited to an anniversary in Provence. friends have rented a goat farm for that day. Alas it is financially out of the question for me Uh, no, Cigalechanta. Those are a special breed of turkeys that simply live to cut a rug. If they are earmarked for the table, all music must be kept away from them so that they don't get too muscular dancing the night away. (Wanna buy a bridge? ) You will be a lot happier if you don't allow yourself to dwell on how animals are treated in non 1st-world countries. Oh, it sounds as though you still know the relatives back in Italy. Lucky! Aaargh! I'll keep my fingers crossed that some bit of luck comes your way that allows you to go to the anniversary party. That would be heaven. In all of Europe, it is common for women to dance together. That's because men like me refuse to dance. Twerp.
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Post by cigalechanta on Jul 31, 2009 0:30:33 GMT
know Brix, but I love animals so much and do worry about those kind of things
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 31, 2009 2:29:34 GMT
... In all of Europe, it is common for women to dance together. That's because men like me refuse to dance. Twerp. Twerp? Was that a swear word? I've always thought of dancing as a women's sport. A bit like synchronised swimming.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 31, 2009 3:59:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 15:57:45 GMT
Checking out the various new pages of stickies and such, I was very pleased to revisit this thread.
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Post by bjd on Mar 23, 2010 7:13:52 GMT
HW, twerp just means idiot.
As a matter of fact, Latin American men dance, so it's just a cultural thing.
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Post by spindrift on Mar 23, 2010 18:59:59 GMT
Kerouac - don't you even like slow dancing cheek to cheek? Hey?
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 5, 2010 3:54:26 GMT
This wedding took place on July 26, 2009. Luis Alejandro Cruz Martínez died on Monday, August 2, 2010. He would have been 70 on August 25. He was the father of the bride and the host of the wedding presented in this thread. You can see his picture in the OP and in #7. He was waked on the porch shown in the middle photo of #2, and one of his funeral Masses was in the church in the OP. I met Don Luis when the Charlies rented a house belonging to Luis's sister in the US. Luis and his equally lovely wife immediately made it clear to the Charlies that they were friends, not just renters, and that I was generously included in that circle of friendship. He was a kind, generous, and fun-loving man, completely self-made and proud of his leadership of the meatcutters' union and his involvement in many public works. It speaks volumes of a person when his in-laws and step-children are as equally saddened by his death as his blood relatives, and when most of a town turns out to honor him. Obituary (in Spanish)
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Post by charlie on Aug 6, 2010 7:36:36 GMT
I posted this Aug. 3rd on another board. It didn't seem to get much notice so I thought I'd share it with the people here.
Last night we celebrated Mr C's birthday with a nice dinner of all the things he wanted to eat. Stuffed roast pork, sweet potatoes, roasted baby potatoes, caesar salad, grilled garlic shrimp, peas with mint and carrots with honey. Desert was a hugely decadent black forest cake. A nice bottle of red wine to toast birthday boy and a shot of Alberta Springs on the patio to settle our over full stomachs. Just two guests, my bro. D and Bixa. Pleasant conversations, a nice little breeze. Just about midnight a car pulled up, Mr C went to the gate. The couple in the car were looking for our landlord's house. Why? because they'd had a phone call to say he had died. OMG!! What to do?? Well, we immediately went to the house. Already they were setting up a massive tent, trucks were pulling in with chairs, crying neighbours were arriving, candles being set out, pictures had been removed from the walls, ladies were sorting black beans, cleaning chilies, several small fires were heating water for tea and coffee. Huge bunches of flowers started arriving and then the hearse pulled in. More weeping. The coffin was set up on a low bier, a black swag was mounted on the wall behind it. All this in an hour and a half. He was a wonderful person who we thought of more as a favorite uncle then a landlord. He and his wife made sure we never missed any family or village function. A true gentleman, the first time we met him he sent for his guitar and sang and played a song of welcome that I'm pretty sure he made up on the spot. He had a great singing voice. We will be going back to the house in a short while. The wake will be three days. First I have to go and pick up sweet buns, as many as the store has. The band started playing in the wee hours this morning, the only break has been when they changed bands.
Up date on this. The bands played right up till it was time to go to the church. By my count it was 40 hours. I'm not sure if that had any significance. The rosary was prayed all that time as well. In nine days it will be done all over again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 9:20:11 GMT
That's really fascinating, charlie. While I know that wakes/funerals/etc. are big events in certain countries, I am astonished by how much of a marathon they are. Do you know if it is more of a rural thing than urban? I can't imagine city dwellers being able to organize such a thing or have as much time for it.
Also, is a big funeral the same sort of status symbol as a big wedding? Do people count points? ("Oh, at last month's funeral, they had shrimp rings!")
I am probably sounding crass, since this is quite recent and you said he was a wonderful person and were attached to him, but I am really curious.
Oh, another question: do you know the significance of nine days before new ceremonies? (I think for Chinese funerals it is 40 days, but I don't know the reason for that either.)
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 7, 2010 4:06:44 GMT
Charlie, thank you so much for posting that. I'd forgotten that wonderful detail about the welcome song -- a perfect reminiscence of the kind of person he was.
I'll answer some of the questions for Charlie, Kerouac, as she might think of more details by the time she looks in here again.
As far as the extended wake with the family and friends, that is done in the city of Oaxaca as well as in the country. People here are simply not that far from their roots, with many of them appalled at the idea of holding a wake at a funeral home. Also, at least some of the extended family will live in the same area and they will hurry to help with arrangements.
No matter how humble or wealthy, the basic steps will be the same. The deceased will be brought to the house in the coffin, with the funeral home people supplying the gurney thing, something to cover it, tall standing candlesticks, etc. A "rezador" will be engaged to lead the prayers.
One thing that is often seen is a "tapete", literally a floor rug, but actually a religious picture made on the floor in front of the casket. It's made all or partly from colored sand, sawdust, seeds, flower petals and powdered lime. Whether or not there is one has to do with the tribal background of the family (I think). Again, this crosses all socio-economic lines. Don Luis did not have one, but there was a crucifix setting on a cross of some white substance, I assume the powdered lime.
About the "nine days". In Mexico, something that will happen in a week will be in "ocho días". The nine days are actually one week and a day. He was buried on Wednesday, so the little funeral will be this coming Thursday.
I've been to a funeral where there was a tapete. When the eighth day came, a group of men arrived at the house, each with a pail and little shovel. They accept this honor in the same way that people accept the honor of being pall bearers. There are more prayers and each man puts some of the sand making up the tapete into his pail. Then everyone goes back to the grave where there are more prayers and the sand is ceremoniously buried into the loose earth on the grave.
Actually, I've never heard of any party or funeral having status attached to it. Parties are simply expected to be really big. For deaths, everyone is expected to come to the house to visit the mourners and to say the rosary. Afterward, it's expected that they will be fed. People do bring things to help out, including money.
The fortieth day after death is also commemorated. Recently there was a Mass in the morning and again in the evening for my landlords' son. After each Mass the rosary was recited. But in the evening, everyone was served tamales after the rosary. After that, there won't be another special Mass for the deceased until the year anniversary of the death.
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 13, 2010 6:31:14 GMT
Just came back a little while ago from the nine-days Mass and subsequent ceremony of the "raising of the cross". I found out I was mistaken in my statement above. There had in fact been a very nice tapete which I never saw. It was of Jesus the Nazarene, pretty appropriate since this was in the town of Jesús Nazareno. It was pretty long and drawn out, but obviously of great emotional importance to the family. I went to the house after the Mass and hung around in the outside kitchen while the rosary was recited on the big porch in front. Then I helped serve up the chocolate that was served to the many guests. There were several charcoal braziers going to heat water. The hot water was mixed with the chocolate paste and smushed, the thinned with more water to the desired consistency. Two women each had a chocolate pitcher and a molinillo. Before each and every bowl of chocolate was poured, the pitcher was re-frothed with the molinillo -- we're talking about well over a hundred bowls of chocolate. A large challah-type bun was served with each bowl of chocolate. After that, bowls of menudo were served, along with hand-made toriillas and loads of garnishes -- cilantro, lime, onion, and chopped chiles. The rosary was recited again, and then there was a lengthy ceremony with the men mentioned above taking up every bit of the materials of the tapete, blessing the floor where it had been, prayers, song, all ending with a round of applause for the deceased. I feel honored and lucky to have known the deceased and to be included in such a milestone occasion.
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Post by bjd on Aug 13, 2010 7:03:16 GMT
Thanks for that description, Bixa. I find that it's good that there are societies that have retained these rituals, both for marriage and death. In France, weddings might still be a big deal (depending on the family and the couple), but funerals are quiet, as though we were eager to ignore the whole idea of death. I have been to two cremations in the past few years and both times I felt as though something was missing.
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DianeMP
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I will take photos of just about anything, anywhere!
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Post by DianeMP on May 18, 2014 3:32:18 GMT
"For people who are immensely fun loving and downright zany, Oaxacans be be awfully stone-faced, giving the wrong idea entirely." Oh my gosh! Good to know, because I did get the wrong idea! I was thinking, as I scrolled through the photos, that everyone looked somber, even bored. I've enjoyed the wedding immensely, just wish I'd brought a gift.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 22, 2014 14:26:38 GMT
Thank you, Diane! I'm sure you would have been a welcome addition to the wedding festivities.
Interesting that you brought up the poker-facedness of Oaxaqueños. I believe this old thread was the first place it was mentioned, but it's been noted various times throughout my other reports on this area. I've mostly gotten used to it, but can see how it's initially disconcerting.
Bjd, I see that I rudely never responded to your last, quite interesting comment. I'd say that from our point of view, the funeral rituals here do seem maybe too long and drawn-out, and surely must be exhausting for the family. On the other hand, as you point out in your comment about people being "eager to ignore the whole idea of death", we are acknowledging the passing of an entire lifetime, which surely calls for something more than a solemn half-hour at a cemetery or crematorium.
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Post by bjd on May 22, 2014 19:05:53 GMT
Bixa, now I have to respond to your response just so I'm not being rude.
You are right about that half an hour at a crematorium. Fortunately, I haven't been to any funerals lately.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 22, 2014 22:00:25 GMT
Oh dear -- have we started some kind of Chip & Dale routine now?
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Post by lola on May 25, 2014 16:55:08 GMT
So glad this came up again. So many fun details like the old woman stooping for an apple.
Is there a typical tapete subject? Like N.S. de Guadalupe or other saints' portraits?
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 22, 2014 16:03:11 GMT
So glad this came up again. So many fun details like the old woman stooping for an apple. Is there a typical tapete subject? Like N.S. de Guadalupe or other saints' portraits? Thanks so much, Lola. Can't believe that I somehow never saw & never responded to your thoughtful comments about this thread. On the funeral tapetes -- As far as I know, the theme is always religious and usually seems to be copied from a well known representation of the figure used. If a saint was particularly venerated by the deceased, that might be the one used, otherwise I guess the family just decides what they like.
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