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Post by lagatta on May 4, 2010 22:58:01 GMT
There is a hell of a lot of difference between living in a "proche banlieue" on the old métro lines (thinking of friends in Montreuil, Bobigny, St-Denis, St-Ouen and Clichy - Clichy-la-Garenne, not Clichy-sous-bois) and living somewhere far afield with limited access to the city.
There are nice places farther out, but I don't think most young students would be happy there.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 7:10:44 GMT
"Happy" is rarely an option. Most of my colleagues can't afford to live in Paris and many of them have been earning a good salary for decades. In my own office, two of us live in Paris (18th and 19th arrondissements), and the other five live in Montreuil, Bièvres, Versailles, Boulogne Billancourt and Moret-sur-Loing. The one who lives in Moret commutes 90 minutes in each direction each and every day.
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Post by lagatta on May 5, 2010 9:25:25 GMT
Oh yes, I'm well aware of housing realities in the Paris region. Most of the suburbs you mention are close by Paris, but I've never even heard of Moret-sur-Loing. It does look pretty, but I'm sure it is dull as doornails. Is that 90-minute commute by car or public transport?
Boulogne-Billancourt must have changed a lot since the huge Renault plants there closed...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 11:20:44 GMT
She takes the RER D to Gare de Lyon and then she has to take the metro.
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Post by fumobici on May 5, 2010 14:35:55 GMT
In most cities it isn't as much a case of people working in the city not literally being able to afford to live in the city, but one of getting a lot more space without the downsides of urban life for the same amount spent. If one has children and thus has limited opportunities to take advantage of the upsides of urban living, living in the 'burbs looks like an easy decision.
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Post by lola on May 5, 2010 14:38:01 GMT
Thanks, Jazz, for the suggestion. I just bought a copy on Amazon.
Mary Clare told me yesterday that she's going with the home stay option, partly because it's less expensive and partly for the cultural immersion aspect. They have the option of requesting closer in, and if things aren't working out she can ask to change.
RIght now I'm working on flights etc. Going a week early, flying in to DUB, then Barcelona by Ryanair, then to Paris would require packing much lighter than she ever has, hostels on her own, picking up fall/winter clothes at the flea markets. All this extra is my idea, not yet run past her. It's easy to get elaborate when you're sitting at a keyboard.
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Post by lola on May 5, 2010 14:45:55 GMT
Well said, Mustard Snob. I've often thought NYC, for instance, would be fun if you were well off and could afford a buffer between yourself and excessive reality.
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Post by bjd on May 5, 2010 15:44:16 GMT
Does she absolutely need to go to Barcelona now? If not, avoid RyanAir. They don't land anywhere near where they say ("Barcelona" is Girona, "Paris" is Beauvais, etc) and if she is carrying stuff for a year, she will pay an arm and a leg for checking her bags. This really seems to be one of those times when it's better to go with a regular airline.
If she really wants to go to Dublin or Barcelona at some point, she can book a cheap flight ahead of time and go for a few days, without all her luggage.
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Post by lola on May 5, 2010 16:35:38 GMT
Yes, bjd, on further reflection, trying to be realistic, etc, I do believe you are absolutely right. She'll be there Sept through Dec, and should have opportunities to meet traveling companions for weekend trips.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:15:04 GMT
In most cities it isn't as much a case of people working in the city not literally being able to afford to live in the city, but one of getting a lot more space without the downsides of urban life for the same amount spent. If one has children and thus has limited opportunities to take advantage of the upsides of urban living, living in the 'burbs looks like an easy decision. For some strange reason, about 95% of the people who leave Paris for the burbs to give their children a little greenery end up bitterly regretting it. And as soon as the children can take public transport alone, they spend all their time in Paris. Go figure.
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Post by lagatta on May 5, 2010 18:56:54 GMT
One advantage Paris has (it shares this with many but not all major European cities) is that most of the suburbs are fairly well served by public transport. In other parts of the world, living outside the city centre may well mean both parents in a family needing cars, for commuting, not just for doing "big" grocery-shoppings. Yes, it is very different if one has children. I'd rather live in a tiny studio than live in a suburb, but I never wanted to have children. Though much as I loathe our USUAL winters (last one was almost nothing), I am glad for that to live in Montréal where although rents and mortgages have increased a lot, they are still a fraction of what they are in Paris, or even Toronto. Where I live is fairly spacious for one person, one cat and several house plants. My Parisian friends who work at home are really cramped. I had a friend from Lyon who was working as a librarian at La Grande bibliothèque for some years, but he returned to his home city when he found a position there. Many old apartments in Lyon have extremely high ceilings because families of silk-weavers lived in them and worked on Jacquard looms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom So nowadays it is common to build a mezzanine to take advantage of this vertical space. Buying or renting a place there has increased in price too, but the m2 is still a lot cheaper than in Paris. lola, yes she should request closer in - as long as she is near a station on the Paris métro (as opposed to the regional RER system) there is little difference being inside or outside the périphérique (though Parisians will say otherwise). Obviously there are other criteria for compatability.
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Post by lola on May 5, 2010 19:49:54 GMT
Thanks, lagatta. Good point about being near a station. My daughter wants to be in a place where you can walk downstairs and down the block to pop into a boulangerie for instance. In the thick of things.
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Post by lagatta on May 5, 2010 20:13:59 GMT
You can do that in many a Parisian suburb as well as in Paris; many of the older ones are very walkable indeed. I could certainly do that when I was staying in Montreuil, and there is a very nice public market. She can find a lot of information on each suburb or district nowadays via wikipedia and other online sources - and by asking kerouac and other experts at this site! And really, she should go with a regular airline. There are certain personal items that can be hard to find first thing in a new country. She'll also want to take her computer for example, and well broken-in shoes. At least nowadays it will be less essential to take or buy dictionaries (a bilingual dictionary and a monolingual French one). There is a lot online, though eventually she'll want a print dico as well as it helps build vocabulary. She can also access Barcelona by train (via Toulouse, I believe). See www.seat61.com Sure, the journey will take a while but I think she'd like seeing the landscape change as she travels.
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Post by lola on May 6, 2010 0:05:19 GMT
We bought tickets STL - CDG today. Thanks to all for your help!
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Post by Jazz on Aug 26, 2010 14:04:11 GMT
Lola, I reread this thread this morning and realized that Mary Clare must soon be leaving! It sounds as though you’ll be accompanying her to get her settled in. It will probably be an unforgettable few months, exciting, sometimes overwhelming and she will never be the same. It would be intriguing to hear how her home stay goes. What area is she going to live in? Of course she will be avidly studying, but there many free or inexpensive things to do in her spare time. Meeting friends will come naturally, but I have folders of sites/articles for How to Meet people in Paris, Frugal Paris…free or inexpensive walks, short tours to studios etc. The French railway site religiously mails me weekend deals with great prices. (drives me insane). 'Pariscope' is an excellent weekly guide which covers ALL the events in Paris of the week. It can be bought at the newstands, is cheap (0.40E) and small to carry. Although it is in French, it is very easy to understand and invaluable. (Often they hide it, because so many people just browse, just ask. I think it comes out on Wed.) spectacles.premiere.fr/pariscope/theatreAs a dedicated and responsible mother, you’ll be ‘forced’ to visit her to see how she’s doing. Bonne Chance!
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Post by lagatta on Aug 27, 2010 15:39:41 GMT
Well, whatever she does will help her studies, as long as it is in French. Beware anglo expat ghettos (though there is nothing wrong with speaking English once in a while to rest her brain).
I get those SNCF weekend getaways too - drives me right mad.
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Post by lola on Sept 3, 2010 1:39:20 GMT
Hi, Jazz and Lagatta. Yes, thanks! She leaves Tuesday, unfortunately unencumbered by her old Ma. *wipes away furtive tear*
It seems that she was lucky with her homestay: it's in the 11th, between Voltaire and Bastille Métro stops and just off the Rue de la Roquette, which looks like a good food shopping street. It's a modern appearing building, and I've already "stalked" it on Google Maps.
She's been reading Paris Inside Out a lot the past few weeks, and will take it with her; thanks so much for that tip, Jazz. She started a blog today, for general consumption, and I hope will post photos, so I can get maximum vicarious pleasure from it.
Family obligations on other fronts made it seem irresponsible to go myself, and while I dithered about it the Nov. BA available FF flights disappeared.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2010 4:44:15 GMT
That may be just as well. Although your presence would have certainly been "useful," you would have certainly found nitpickyish things to worry about and that she will deal with in her own way.
Oh, the imagination runs wild, doesn't it?
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2010 6:00:21 GMT
If she leaves Tuesday, I do hope that mean she arrives on Wednesday. Tuesday Sept 7th, there is a strike planned in France, and transportation will be affected.
Rue de la Roquette is not a good shopping street -- it's full of restaurants and take-outs and mobs of people in the evenings. However, for food, she can go to Marché d'Aligre, just across rue du Faubourg St Antoine, or else on Sundays, there is a market on Boulevard Richard Lenoir, one street over from rue de la Roquette. But in a homestay, she won't be needing to buy food.
The 11th is a pretty good area -- lots of small shops and restaurants. Unfortunately, Blvd Voltaire itself has been taken over by Chinese garment manufacturers over the past 10 years or so, totally killing all life on the street. But she can go up towards Place de la République, where it gets lively once again.
And the advantage of the 11th, is that's it's easily walkable to anywhere in the centre of Paris.
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Post by lola on Sept 3, 2010 15:52:48 GMT
I'm afraid my motive in going to Paris was the selfish one of seeing a little of it with her, rather than being helpful. She's the level headed type who's more likely than I am to know which train to take, for instance. I do enjoy checking things out in advance, but when she's there I respect her autonomy and won't interfere unless in some specialized way like health care.
I do have another daughter who's counting on a mother-daughter trip to France soon, luckily for me, and wants to stay awhile in the country and in town. The challenge on that will be slipping away without her father, who's been brushing up on his French in a pointed manner.
Oh, thank you, bjd. I never thought about strikes. She lands at CDG the morning of the 8th and had planned on taking public transport to the apartment. Is that likely to work?
The homestay agreement is for breakfast daily and two evening meals/week. Otherwise she'll brown bag, eat out, and whip something up herself. The nearby cafés, boulangeries, and takeouts will be a plus.
Please, Paris experts: the bus map indicates route 69 using Rue de la Roquette and terminating at Gambetta, but internet maps show the street as one-way going northwest.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2010 16:42:53 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Sept 3, 2010 17:54:26 GMT
soixante-neuf: ligne érotique. (Just kidding). I know that busline well from staying in Ménilmontant (not far from Gambetta), as you can see it goes over to the Left Bank. That is an unusually good location for a homestay. Cafés might be a bit expensive for a student. She is certainly informed about les restos U (restaurants universitaires). Like all cafeterias, not gastronomy, but some have a far better reputation than others. According to this article (in French) the food is improving: www.leparisien.fr/societe/on-va-mieux-manger-au-resto-u-04-03-2010-835281.phpThere isn't one in the 11th, but resto U Citeaux in the 12th is not far: look at the pretty room! www.abroadco.com/paris/UniversityRestaurant-7.htm
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2010 19:33:55 GMT
Hmmm. I don't think they have built RU's like that for a while, Lagatta. I know a lady here who is around 80 yrs old. When her older brother was an engineering student in Paris, he lodged and ate at the Cîteaux one.
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Post by lola on Sept 3, 2010 19:50:28 GMT
Thanks, K. The close up version makes a difference.
Nice, Lagatta. 2,90 € for any kind of repas sounds pretty good, and a room like that would add value. I'll forward this info.
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Post by Jazz on Sept 3, 2010 20:45:46 GMT
Very good reminder by bjd. Perhaps the public transportation will be up and running, but don’t count on it. Personally, I would budget either for a shared shuttle or a taxi, 30-60Euro to that area. She will be tired from the overseas flight, laden with luggage for 4 months and the last thing she needs is to be stranded at CDG. She has indeed stumbled into a wonderful area for a homestay. Just off rue de la Roquette, between Bastille and Voltaire metro stops is great! I am very familiar with this area, my apartment for a month was at 22 rue de la Roquette. It is an extremely vibrant area, especially for younger people. Often I’d return home from other arrondissements which had become quiet for the evening…when I emerged from the metro at Bastille, I stepped into a whole other world, noisy, vital, alive. Some of my most loved places in Paris are closeby. The Marche Aligre and the Marche Richard Lenoir, (or, Marche Bastille) afoodiefroggy.canalblog.com/archives/2007/02/21/4081006.htmlthis site gives a glimpse of the Marche Richard Lenoir, and many other possibilities, www.geobeats.com/videoclips/france/paris/bastille-market…the Viaduc des Arts, rue Ste. Marthe, Canal Saint Martin, rue de Lappe, rue Keller, rue oberkampf, rue Charenton….all streets with cafes, music, some young designers etc…very young and alive. It is a area with many beautiful old passageways. I have only mentioned 'known' streets...there are so many other small streets, squares, enclaves that are rich with possibility. An older but excellent article, www.travelandleisure.com/articles/undiscovered-paris-je-taime/1Worth a look, peter-pho2.blogspot.com/search/label/Paris%2011 peter-pho2.blogspot.com/search/label/Paris%2010Given that she has daily breakfast and only two dinners a week provided, your daughter will soon be learning about eating frugally, but well, in Paris! There is so much to say about this that it will be another post. Your desire to be in Paris with your daughter, (perhaps both?), isn’t at all selfish. Why not? It would be wonderful and if I were you, I would be researching apartments asap.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 3, 2010 23:16:26 GMT
Yes, lola, I'd assume someone told her about CROUS (the agency in charge of university cafeterias in Paris) but what knows? Hard to cook a full meal for €2,90 - almost impossible without a pantry - and when I was interpreting at Nanterre (this is a large university in a suburb west of Paris) the food was fine. There were salads and vegetables, and I don't remember any dodgy mystery meat in brown sauce.
Oh, Jazz, I love all your links!
Lola, yep, you'll get to Paris soon, but you know very well that MC has to sally forth on her own first.
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Post by bjd on Sept 4, 2010 12:03:21 GMT
The transport strike is slated to end at 8 am on Wednesday. And it's not likely that everybody will be on strike. There is supposed to be some guaranteed minimum service. And there is a small mistake in Jazz's first link to Aligre market. Coming from Ledru Rollin, you have to turn right, not left. It's my neighbourhood
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Post by lagatta on Sept 4, 2010 14:28:27 GMT
That is true, bjd, didn't notice the wrong turn. The market is a bit en retrait from the main streets in the area. It really is a good idea to take one of those Paris par arrondissement plan books as there are so many little streets. It is always a good idea to have some € in cash for emergencies though. Here is a thread from chowhound with some cheap eats ideas, though it centres on a different neighbourhood: chowhound.chow.com/topics/700625 And the Financial Times has a review of a good and cheap couscous place in the 10th: www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cd8cfb32-7d60-11de-b8ee-00144feabdc0.htmlI agree with the sidebar about visiting the Mosque in the 5th and having mint tea (and perhaps a tiny pastry) in the courtyard. It is like a trip to a Moroccan garden for the same ticket price. While you are there you will want to visit l'Institut du monde arabe. Even if you don't take in a paid exhibit that day, you can take the lift free of charge to the roof, where there is a restaurant/salon de thé but above all an extraordinary view of Notre-Dame, l'île St-Louis and other Paris sights.
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Post by lola on Sept 5, 2010 1:34:58 GMT
This is so good. I'm very glad to read your takes on this neighborhood, and to hear that it's a happening area.
Great links, Jazz. I wanted to get to Marche Richard Lenoir last time we were there, but never did. Thanks!
I love the cheap eats links, Lagatta, and the tip about the Mosque courtyard. I wonder whether that's the one in Paris Je T'Aime; must be, I guess, since it's in the 5th.
I really appreciate the heads up on transit strike, bjd, limited though it might be. My daughter is frugal, even with her parent's money, but a cab or similar ride will surely be the prudent way to go under the circs.
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Post by Jazz on Sept 6, 2010 1:16:57 GMT
Your daughter’s area, the 11th, is exceptional for a first time visitor who wants to feel part of the ‘real’ Paris. It has probably peaked by now, offers much, and is within walking distance of the more ‘of the moment’ areas, the 10th, 12th ,19th and 20th. These arrondissements are the least touched by tourism. I think it’s perfect, she is not stuck in the banlieue, nor is she in the heavily touristed and expensive arrondissements, 1-7. But, we each have individual experiences. The tsunami of information and advice about what is ‘good’, what is ‘of the moment’, what is the ‘real Paris’ is overwhelming. We each explore individually and grow with each visit. If you find something for the first time, it is stimulating for you. It doesn’t matter if it is considered yesterday’s news by someone else. Who cares?... it is fresh and exciting for you. I have a problem with what seems to be the current vision of ‘what to see and what is the real Paris’, although this has probably been expressed, with changing parameters throughout history. Essentially, today, 'arrondissments 1-7 are touristic and overdone…go to 10-20'. Yes and no. While I enjoy and am excited by my evolving discovery of eastern Paris, there is so much of Parisian history in 1-7, this is the original essence of Paris. I don’t think that one can ever have a true sense of Paris without spending time here. Yes, there are many tourists, but families have lived here for generations and might take exception to being written off. I have lived in the 5th twice (one month each) and found lovely unexplored enclaves, small streets of untouched daily life… dare I say…the real Paris? With thought and exploration of your neigborhood, you can find good deals and special places, even in the 5th, for example. I am trying express this, explore all of Paris and make up your own mind. These books are in my own library and some of the best that I have yet found for the non-French speaking person, non fiction. (There is, of course, a Huge library of fiction written both by French and non-French to explore.) 1. Around and About Paris, a trilogy by Thirza Vallois. www.amazon.com/Around-About-Paris-Eiffel-Arrondissements/dp/095253780X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283731303&sr=8-1An absorbing read, with walking tours of each area of Paris with great historical detail. (not contemporary, no suggestions of lunch etc.) 2. Paris,Paris: Journey into the city of Light, by David Downie. Excellent essays. www.amazon.com/Paris-Journey-into-City-Light/dp/0976925109/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283733904&sr=1-1..am shocked!, I bought my copy for $20, just buy the used. 3. Paris discovered: explorations in the City of Light, by Mary McAuliffe. Very good essays. www.amazon.com/Paris-Discovered-Explorations-City-Light/dp/0871272873/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1283734080&sr=1-1-fkmr0 4. An Hour from Paris, by Annabel Sims. An excellent book of day trips from Paris for the person without a car. She discusses in detail how to get there by train, prices, where to lunch etc. A classic. www.amazon.com/Hour-Paris-Annabel-Simms/dp/1873429495/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283734124&sr=1-15. Paris to the Moon, by Adam Gopnik. He lived for five years in Paris with his wife and little son, 1995-2000, and they experienced the birth of their daughter there. This book is a collection of his essays for the NY times. Wonderful! www.amazon.com/Paris-Moon-Adam-Gopnik/dp/0375758232/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283734191&sr=1-1These two books are exceptional for those of us who are lured by ‘Paris inconnu’, the unexplored Paris. 1. Unexplored Paris, by Rodolphe Trouillliux. Not cheap, and difficult to find in English. Very good. www.amazon.com/Unexplored-Paris-Rodolphe-Trouilleux/dp/2840960788/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283734323&sr=1-2Keep checking, cheaper second hand editions come up every now and then.. 2. Secret Paris, by Jacques Garance and Maud Ratton, pub. by Jonglez. This is the 'jewel of the crown'. I bought it only a few months ago (again, not easy to find in english translation) and as I read through each of the 20 arrondissements, I was astounded to see that I had missed and was totally unaware of most of what was in each arrondissement. Fabulous!!! It costs nothing to see what it reveals of Paris, www.amazon.com/Secret-Paris-Jonglez-Garance-Ratton/dp/2915807175/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1283734616&sr=1-1-fkmr0
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