Ridiculous feminism?

[onlymark]

In English we now no longer have any actresses, waitresses, chairwomen, policewomen, hostesses etc as these titles are all now gender neutral or default to the male version, e.g actor, comedian.
Certain women have fought for years for this to be so and to negate the risk of offending them, the English language has succumbed.

Yet, in German (and probably other major languages that I don't know) this is not so.
Why?

I was speaking last night with a German woman who is quite a rabid feminist and she commented that she was against this as she actively wanted to be known and recognised as a woman and not lumped together with men. She wanted to be called an "Ärztin" and not an "Arzt" (both Doctor), the suffix 'in' denoting a female.

What do you think?
Do you think it has now gone too far, into the realms of ridiculousness, or not far enough?
Why is it only in English? Are German/French women not feminist enough?
Or they they just more realistic and sensible?
Do we just blame the Americans anyway?

[onlymark]

One thing - when I was in the Police we were all recognised by a collar number. But Police women had a number 1 always as the first number. Certain women felt this was sexist and demanded this practice be changed, the number 1 dropped. Under pressure, it was.
The problem then occurred that e.g. Policewoman 1265 now became just 265. However, there was already a Policeman 265 who had had that number for the last twenty five years, the woman being a new starter (this actually happened).
The man had a new number forced upon him every time, no woman had to change other than dropping the 1.

Next thing - the tailoring was different in the trousers, women had already won the right to not have to wear skirts if they didn't want. One single Policewoman demanded that she be issued with male trousers as it was sexist to differentiate between them. She was, and so were all who wanted.
Yet when myself and two other Policemen paraded on it uniform skirts in protest at the situation and the always caving in to women, and we demanded that if she can wear our uniform, we can wear hers (she was in my Station), we were sent home to change.

[spindrift]

Yes, Mark, you are right. Feminism has gone too far in this country, the media have supported it and ridiculous mayhem reigns. I do believe that this started in America and we, being late starters, always tag onto American ideas sooner or later. I am as pissed off with it as you are.

[Deleted]

France is going in several directions at the same time. First of all, a lot of old fashioned feminine terms have been abandoned, such as doctoresse, mairesse, poetesse, because they were considered to be demeaning. “Doctoresse” for example sounds more like a woman pretending to be a doctor than actually being a real doctor.

Some professions have gained a feminizing “e” in recent years – docteure, auteure, ingénieure…

There is still a battle about certain titles. The formerly correct terms of “Madame le juge,” “Madame le ministre” or “Madame le président” are being abandoned by many women who prefer la juge, la ministre, la présidente. This last one is part of a group of titles that presents a particular problem, because usage 100 years ago was that “Madame la présidente” was the wife of “Monsieur le président” and “Madame l’ambassadrice” was the wife of “Monsieur l’ambassadeur.” Obviously, times have changed, and the language must change with it.

In any case, there is no desire in France to get rid of classic feminine words like actrice or institutrice.

To my knowledge, there is only one profession in France that exists in feminine form only, even when it is practiced by men (rare but not unheard of) – sage-femme (midwife).

[onlymark]

I suppose a male midwife in English is still a midwife also?

[Deleted]

There are male midwives?

Some of the changes that women want/have made in what they want to be called do make sense to me. The word Actress for instance has negative undertones, due to the 'casting couch' and just the way the females of this profession have been viewed for so long now. Women who are being paid in the millions nowadays for making movies, where they work just as hard as the men, needs to be called an actor, because that is what they are.

As for the police woman that wanted to wear trousers, that makes sense to me. Women in the general public wear trousers, so why shouldn't they? Besides trousers are warmer and more practical, skirts are not. We have female firefighters here, would it be practical for them (or the men) to wear skirts? No, I don't think so. It depends on the profession. If a stripper in a night club wanted to wear dungarees then that would also be unpractical. Do you see my point?

Some might think certain things that woman want have gone too far. But what some woman are doing is making a statement, in that what they want DOES count. For centuries their opinions and wants meant nothing. It is was not so long ago when women were not allowed a vote, had to shut up or else. And in some counties that is still so.

[onlymark]

Deyana, the point about the trousers is not whether they have the right to wear them, common sense dictates it should be so, but that there was a difference in the tailoring of male and female trousers and one female felt that this was wrong. She demanded to wear male trousers or at least make a unisex pair.

The thing with the actor/actress is not so much what they are called. It's the fact that females didn't want a different name as it points out that they are female. They want either a gender neutral name or to be called the same as a male. Yet in many countries and languages females feel secure enough that they aren't bothered and even, as with the German doctor, she actively wanted it to be obvious she was female.
Why do women not want to be recognised as so?
Why do they think it is sexist if they have a female end to the job title name?
It's all a bit ridiculous to me.

[Deleted]

I see absolutely nothing negative about the word "actress" but then again I find absolutely nothing offensive about the word "oriental" either so maybe my brain is skewed.

Do people in English speaking countries still say "male nurse" instead of just "nurse"? In French, there's no problem with that since there are infirmiers and infirmières.

[Deleted]

I see absolutely nothing negative about the word "actress"

Maybe that's because you are not a female actor?

one female felt that this was wrong. She demanded to wear male trousers or at least make a unisex pair.


Then she was probably making some kind of point. Is there more to this story perhaps? I personally would not want to wear a trousers tailor made for a man, that's very unbecoming

It's a personal choice and nothing to do with being 'insecrure'. Women who prefer to be called by a certain title (whether they be doctors or toilet cleaners matter not), should be entitled to do so. I could even go as far as to ask: Do men feel insecure about a woman choosing her own title?, do they feel it affects their own masculinity in some way?

[bixaorellana]

It is very true that certain words are loaded, whether they are meant to be or not. Certainly, as Kerouac points out, the female names for certain professions do sound like toy versions of the real thing, "aviatrix" being a case in point.

And yes, you still hear "male nurse", which I think proves people are making value judgments in their word choices. The sentence "He is a male nurse." is pretty redundant, at the very least.

I always feel sorry for women in jobs which have pants (trousers) as part of the uniform, as so often it's obvious they're forced to wear man-tailored pants, which don't work on most women. However, I've known many women to wear men's pants, especially jeans, because they prefer the fit. If the cop in Mark's example wanted the men's uniform pants, maybe the only way she could get them was by claiming sexism in being denied them.

I've been watching The Wire, a series about a police department in Baltimore. In it, all of the cops refer to themselves and others as police, used as both singular and plural, i.e., "I'm a police. She's pure police.", etc. I really like this usage and wonder if it has become common.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2010 17:33:49 GMT deyana said:

I see absolutely nothing negative about the word "actress"

Maybe that's because you are not a female actor?

No, it's because there is no stigma to it in my mind or in the language that I use most of the time. Women in France would be horrified to have to adopt the male word for their profession. It would signal total defeat for their gender.

Looks like the anglo male world has won again if women have to disguise themselves in a genderless word to be taken seriously.

[onlymark]

In my eyes she was making a point too far. In her eyes, and there was nothing more to it, is that it should be that women can wear the uniform of a man, or a woman. There should be no difference at all based on sex. But it was generally accepted that it didn't work both ways.
Also though she never wanted to wear the style of helmet for a man or the bullet/stab proof vest for men. She wanted the female helmet and the female vest that was tailored for the frontal bumps.

She was making the point because she could.

[onlymark]

And that's the point I'm making, what kerouac said.
Why do the 'English/Americans' go to such lengths to obliterate any reference to the genders when other nationalities don't. And they positively want to keep the difference. Does this make them less feminist? Or more so because they've moved on and left behind the situation of being called a 'Chair'?

[bjd]

I don't know to what extent it's a question of feminism or simply one of political correctness gone overboard.

[Deleted]

I have to admit that the day that actresses became actors, my one and only reaction was WTF?

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2010 18:40:02 GMT onlyMark said:

And that's the point I'm making, what kerouac said.
Why do the 'English/Americans' go to such lengths to obliterate any reference to the genders when other nationalities don't.

Maybe because they feel more strongly about it? I actually thought that all actors called themselves 'actors' nowadays, whether male or female. So they are still 'actresseses' in France then? I wonder how long before that changes?

It didn't surprise me at all when the word changed over to 'actor'.

It's not the actual word that feels iky to some, but what it has meant and what it has signified in the past, that has made it a less then respectable word. I can't blame women actors for not wanting to be associated with it.

[Deleted]

Actrice is a totally respectable word in French. There is absolutely no reason to change it. Women are revered, even if not all of them are respected.

[Deleted]

Deyana, have you asked your sovereign, King Elizabeth II, what she thinks of all this?

[lagatta]

I never understood the aversion to actress either. But Ärtzin is the normal German word nowaday for a female physician, in the mainstream press. Certainly in all our German lessons we learn masculine and feminine forms of job titles.

Actrice ou comédienne (which does not mean a female "comedian"). Yes, bixa, aviatrix and editrix sound odd in English, but the trice female suffix is common in French and Italian. (perhaps less so in Spanish?) Doesn't sound strange or contemptuous at all

deyana, it depend's on the woman's bodies. Some women (slim or stocky) are built more straight up and down like a typical man, so men's trousers would fit them better. Men's clothes don't fit me at all.

I certainly don't think feminism has gone too far, but all social movements produce absurdities, it is in the nature of movements, whatever their demands or ideology.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2010 20:41:49 GMT kerouac2 said:

Deyana, have you asked your sovereign, King Elizabeth II, what she thinks of all this?

No way, I'm not into Royalty or even interested in anything they have to say.

[onlymark]

Someone with a longer knowledge of German may correct me, but as far as I'm aware prior to the 70's and 80's in Germany when women's rights came to the fore, many job titles didn't have a female equivalent anyway. It wasn't until women pushed for it that the suffix 'in' was introduced to denote that it is a female even though previously a female would've been unlikely to do the job.
So once they did do it, they wanted it known they are female and not male.
Also, with a job title such as Engineer where there is no female ending in English, they've put an ending on deliberately so that you know it is a woman doing it.

So in other words, the feminist movement in countries other than the UK and USA were either quite happy having the difference or actually promoted a change so that there was one.
Both movements can't be right. And I know which one I prefer and feel they are more 'feminist' in their approach.

[Deleted]

Indeed, it simplifies life for everybody if there is an indication of the sex in the title.

"Who is your favourite actor?"

"Meryl Streep."

That is just stupid to me, and even more so if someone has to say "who is your favourite female actor?"

[onlymark]

And I'd disagree with that because Jodie Foster is a far better actress.

[bixaorellana]

As LaGatta points out, some languages have gender built into them. I feel it's one of the great glories of the English language that it does not, but that's just me. Be that as it may, for so long people felt the need to point out that someone was a female doctor because that profession had been closed to women. So, wanting a feminine form of the title is a way to remind everyone that yes, women can be doctors, too.

I favor "actress" because so many actresses seem to use it for themselves, plus it's not used to trivialize women in the acting profession.

And I agree with LaGatta that feminism has not gone too far. Until there is no need for a feminist movement or a word to describe it, it hasn't gone far enough.

[Jazz]

While I wasn't surprised that this was moved, I was taken aback that it was not put into Port and Starboard. For me, the OP cannot be discussed out of the context of 'feminism'.

Mark:... What do you think?
Do you think it has now gone too far, into the realms of ridiculousness, or not far enough?
Why is it only in English? Are German/French women not feminist enough?
Or they they just more realistic and sensible?
Do we just blame the Americans anyway? ...'

Lagatta:
....'I certainly don't think feminism has gone too far, but all social movements produce absurdities, it is in the nature of movements, whatever their demands or ideology...'

This OP seems relatively simple, but is complex. The changing language of how we refer to women is a significent part of the evolving role of women. I agree with Lagatta. To absolve the Americans of 'blame' (re: OP), the feminist movement did not begin in the US. (blaming the Americans is a simplistic cop-out.) There are debates on the actual origin of Feminism, but in the English speaking world, certainly 18th century France and England come to mind. Think of the salons of 17th and 18th century France and England's Mary Wollenstoncraft (English) and the Suffragette movement.
www.herstoria.com/discover/hfeminism.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism

I don't know why this may not have happened in non-European cultures. There is quite a bit of research into much earlier support of women in other non-European cultures. Certainly in France, the women of the salons and Simone de Beauvoir ( The Second Sex) spoke powerfully for the rights of women to be recognized on an equal footing with males. Each culture has been developing in different ways. In some cultures, the 'lock-down' by males, was and is, so impregnable that it simply cannot happen...yet. Consider our multi- page discussion of the Burka, (5 pages and 123 rather passionate replies)
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=1590&page=1

Do you think that these women are 'just more realistic and sensible? They have not even come to the point where they can safely take off the burka, let alone have the luxury of discussing how they want to be addressed as human beings. A luxury given without question to males. Indeed, their 'right' to do so is judged by males.

Feminism is not 'ridiculous'. It is interesting that thus far the replies that tend to support this view are from males. More to come.

[Jazz]

The specific 'words' of feminism, and, of any other movement...

Perhaps these words sometimes go too far and appear 'ridiculous' to some in a given time. Language , historically, is significent part of the evolution of any idea or movement. With time, these words become redundent, or, a powerful part of the vocabulary of an age. But, at the historic moment, they are considered important. I'll just talk about a subject that I know about, actress and actor.

The film industry in North America has been male dominated for most of its life, since 1900. Only in the past fifteen years has this shifted, somewhat. The 'casting couch' was and still is, a reality. Women in the film industry have had to fight for respect and equal wages, whatever their jobs. Indeed, many jobs were filled by men only until recently. Female 'actors' are on the 'front lines'. We, in the background/off-camera jobs, appreciate their efforts. If it is important that these women want to be known as Actors, what is the problem? I don't care. They have fought for equal recognition and wages commensurate to their male peers...this is a problem? For me, not at all. French and German actresses don't have this problem? Good for them!!! This was and is not the situation here in North America. Therefore, steps were taken to try equalize the situation. Simply, one word was asked for...call us 'Actors'. Film is regarded quite differently in North America than in Europe. Europeans, on the whole, regard Film as an art form. This happens much less here. The use of the word 'actor' for both male and female was an attempt to bring respect to the females.

Now, to put all of this into historical context...Those of you who dismiss 'feminist wording', may want to think of history and a significent question:
Why are there no great female artists?
a good site, www.lilithgallery.com/arthistory/feminist/

As with the film studio system of the 20th century, there was a very defined and male controlled studio system in these centuries. Artemisia fascinates me.
More to come.

[Jazz]

Clothing and the 'ridiculous'...

I have noted the discussion of the male and female 'pant' in this thread. The difference deemed to be rather 'silly 'by some here. Time to look at relatively recent history.

World Wars 1 and 2 are, I think, ummm....signficent? WW1 really said, 'Girls, out with the bustle and hustle on...'. WW2 was a more extreme example. Civilization as we knew it was in exteme peril. Suddenly, women were called upon to contribute to our salvation. (afro-americans/blacks of today will well understand this.) Women became essential. They often wore pants in order to work efficiently. They worked in so many jobs that had before this time been denied to them as women. They wore male uniforms. Who cared, or should care today, if the fly zipps to left or right? (personally, this does not keep me awake at night.) Nothing was ever the same after WW2.

Perhaps the most famous North American Poster,


a few others,

WW1,


WW1,







More to come.

[Jazz]

Back to the OP:

Apr 28, 2010 6:46:06 GMT onlyMark said:

In English we now no longer have any actresses, waitresses, chairwomen, policewomen, hostesses etc as these titles are all now gender neutral or default to the male version, e.g actor, comedian.
Certain women have fought for years for this to be so and to negate the risk of offending them, the English language has succumbed.

Yet, in German (and probably other major languages that I don't know) this is not so.
Why?

I was speaking last night with a German woman who is quite a rabid feminist and she commented that she was against this as she actively wanted to be known and recognised as a woman and not lumped together with men. She wanted to be called an "Ärztin" and not an "Arzt" (both Doctor), the suffix 'in' denoting a female.

What do you think?
Do you think it has now gone too far, into the realms of ridiculousness, or not far enough?
Why is it only in English? Are German/French women not feminist enough?
Or they they just more realistic and sensible?
Do we just blame the Americans anyway?

Conclusion to my previous 3 replies...

We need time to understand how far this has gone and needs to go. Read the posts and the sites.
German and French women are 'feminist and sensible' and from a different culture. They supported feminism. (ie: Simone de Beauvoir)
Most important is to be aware of the culture from which you view your present reality. The males who read this thread will understand it Totally differently from the females. I can say one thing only for sure, feminism is not 'ridiculous'.
Words are not 'ridiculous' or powerless. They are often the first step on a long journey.

[Deleted]

I am still stuck on the language aspect, even if it can not be dissociated from the underlying issues.

I see no reason to put an ad in the paper saying "actor wanted - must look good in a dress" -- actress is a much more efficient word.

[onlymark]

Jazz - blaming the Americans was done tongue in cheek because they get blamed for everything anyway.
However, calling an actress an actor does seem to be their fault, like you said.

Trousers - no problem with me, they can wear them all the time. The principle of demanding that they can wear them is also fine. Where is delves into the arena of being ridiculous is where the woman demanded to wear the male ones and not the female cut ones. That's where it goes too far and gives feminism a bad name. Not the fact of wanting to wear trousers, but the fact of wanting only to wear the male version.

I agree, feminism is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is the extent, in certain areas, that it has gone, as with making job titles gender neutral so it isn't deemed to be sexist.
And this is nothing to do with religion, which is more the subject concerning the hijab, niqab, burka, chador issue.