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Post by hwinpp on Apr 7, 2011 4:10:15 GMT
Thailand 'admits cluster bombs used against Cambodia'Campaigners against cluster munitions say Thailand has admitted it used the weapons against Cambodia in February.
The Cluster Munition Coalition called the decision "appalling" and "unconscionable".
The weapons were banned by an international convention three years ago, but neither Thailand nor Cambodia have signed the agreement.
Admitting the use of cluster munitions would represent a significant shift in Thailand's position.
Cambodia was quick to accuse its larger neighbour of using the weapons during four days of border fighting in February.
Thailand denied the allegation - saying that if anyone had used cluster munitions, it was Cambodian forces.
But several humanitarian organisations have visited the border area around Preah Vihear temple, and they reported finding unexploded cluster bomblets.
This evidence appears to have caused the shift in Bangkok's stance.
The Cluster Munition Coalition says that Thailand has confirmed that it fired the weapons, claiming that it was self defence against heavy artillery from Cambodia landing in civilian areas.
The coalition says that should not be a justification for using weapons which are banned by more than 100 countries.
According to the campaigners, thousands of villagers are now at risk of death or serious injury because of unexploded ordnance near their homes.
Part of the reason for the weapons notoriety is that children find the brightly-coloured bomblets attractive and get badly hurt if they pick them up.www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12983127How stupid are those Thai army commanders?
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 7, 2011 7:04:30 GMT
Geez, that is really sick. Who is going to clean up the unexploded ordnance?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 7:15:24 GMT
Cambodia already has the highest percentage of amputees in the world due to this.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 7, 2011 7:48:01 GMT
Now they're saying that the Thai army doesn't consider the munition used cluster bombs... 180 other countries must be wrong...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 7:49:58 GMT
What country is selling them this stuff anyway?
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 11, 2011 2:42:40 GMT
Thailand quibbles over cluster bomb definitionThe Thai government said yesterday that it disputes the description of weapons it used during border clashes with Cambodia in February as cluster bombs, an internationally condemned weapon. On Wednesday, the Cluster Munitions Coalition said it had “conclusive” evidence that Thailand had deployed cluster munitions, which are banned by a 2008 treaty signed by 108 countries and ratified by 55, after two on-site investigations together with confirmation from the Thai ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva. Neither Cambodia nor Thailand have signed the treaty, which entered into force in August. Thai government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said yesterday the Thai military had used 155-milimetre Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition in the clashes, but that the military does not consider the weapons to be cluster munitions. When questioned whether Thailand used cluster weapons during the conflict, he said: “The answer is, according to the military, no.” The CMC disagrees. Laura Cheeseman, director of the organisation, said the weapon “is most definitely a cluster munition.” “Every country considers DPICM as cluster munitions,” she said in an email from London, and added that the weapons were defined as clusters in the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions and its draft protocol. “It has the effects and impact of a cluster munition and has been well documented in several conflict to cause harm to civilians during and after attacks,” she said, citing the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and Georgia over the last decade.
Cluster munitions have been internationally condemned because of their long-term consequences for civilians.
The shells split open after they are launched, or dropped by air, scattering bomblets across a wide area. These bomblets often lie dormant for years before exploding, leaving a lasting threat.
Heng Rattana, director general of the Cambodian Mine Action Centre, said DPICM were “clearly” part of the cluster munitions ban.
Panitan said the military had used DPICM in retaliation for alleged Cambodian BM-21 rocket fire that hit Thai civilians, though he was not sure how many civilian casualties had occurred.
Heng Rattana said BM-21 were “conventional weapons”.
www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2011040848455/National-news/thailand-quibbles-over-cluster-bomb-definition.html
The US produces the stuff and, being an ally of Thailand's, I'd think they sold them the stuff. But I'm not sure. Could have come from anywhere.
The Thais are on a big military build- up. The army being in power they've been able to buy an aircraft carrier (used to help out with the evacuation from Samui after the recent floods) and, I think, 3 submarines.
Google GT 200 bomb detector and you'll see how the army wastes money, hilarious.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2011 7:46:12 GMT
I found this information about cluster bombs (although the actual subject was Libya):
There are many different kinds of air-dropped or ground-launched "sub-munitions," but work more or less the same: One bomb opens prior to impact and casts up to 2,000 — depending on the type — smaller "bomblets" over a wide swath of territory. These "wide dispersal pattern weapons" explode on impact, but many of them do not. Instead they lay in wait for days, weeks, years, or even decades, to kill or maim shepherds, children or anyone else that stumbles upon them. Some of these bomblets are smaller than the size of a fist, but can blow off a limb. In a bit of sad irony, the modern bomblet is often brightly colored, meant to make them easier to spot and avoid; but the bright colors also prove to be an enticing object for a curious child to pick up — boom!
Countries whose people face the serious threat from leftover sub-munitions include Laos, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Western Sahara and Lebanon. The international arms trade is alive and well, and these weapons are easily obtained from unscrupulous vendors by murderous despots the world over. The dormant threat these weapons pose is why in December 2008 dozens of countries signed the CCM, the Convention on Cluster Munitions. There are currently over 100 such signatories. The convention came into force on Aug. 1, 2010.
Many of the countries that have made, stockpiled or used these weapons have in principle pledged to stop doing so by ratifying the CCM, including Japan, Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Serbia, the UK and Lebanon. Spain in particular has been called out for having been the source of Qaddafi's stockpile of cluster munitions, sold to his regime a year before the country became a CCM signatory.
But there are many holdouts, including the usual suspects, the Big Three of the international arms trade: The US, Russia and China. Other glaring holdouts include: Israel, India, Pakistan, Turkey, Brazil and both Koreas. The last time the issue of cluster bombs caught the world's attention was during the July war of 2006 in Lebanon when Israel unleashed a powerful assault on Lebanese territory after Hezbollah rockets were fired at Israel and an Israeli military patrol was attacked. The month-long Israeli military assault razed southern Lebanon's infrastructure, and it peppered the region with unexploded bomblets. According to an annual report by the UN's Mine Action Coordination Center of South Lebanon, there are up to a million unexploded munitions in Southern Lebanon, including conventional bombs and land mines.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 22, 2011 3:28:32 GMT
Fresh clashes on Thai-Cambodian border "breach of UN ceasefire"Phnom Penh - The Cambodian government said Friday that Thai troops had launched 'unprovoked attacks' on its soldiers, marking the first clashes between the two neighbours since February. Cambodian government spokesman Phay Siphan said an unknown number of Thai troops had entered Cambodian territory in the north-west province of Oddar Meanchey early Friday morning around a temple known as Ta Krabei. There was no news on casualties, but Phay Siphan said fighting was ongoing and had now spread to another temple called Ta Moan. 'This is a breach of the permanent ceasefire (called for by the) United Nations Security Council,' Phay Siphan said. Thai and Cambodian troops clashed February 4-7 around the vicinity of Preah Vihear temple, a World Heritage site around 200 kilometres from Ta Krabei, killing at least 10 people. Indonesia has offered to send monitors to the disputed area near Preah Vihear temple, a move Cambodia welcomed. Phay Siphan said the situation at Preah Vihear temple early Friday was stable. The United Nations and the regional Association of South-East Asian Nations (ASEAN) bloc have called on both sides to find a peaceful solution to the conflict. ASEAN has taken the reins in mediating negotiations, but discussions held in Indonesia, the current chair of the bloc, earlier this month failed to resolve the situation. The International Court of Justice ruled in 1962 that the flashpoint temple of Preah Vihear belonged to Cambodia but stopped short of determining the border demarcation in the contested area. Both countries claim a 4.6-square-kilometre plot of land near the temple, which has been included under Cambodia's management plan for UNESCO's World Heritage Committee. Since July 2008 both Cambodia and Thailand have beefed up their forces near Preah Vihear temple, 450 kilometres north-east of Bangkok, leading to several border skirmishes. www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1634549.php/Fresh-clashes-on-Thai-Cambodian-border-breach-of-UN-ceasefire
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 22, 2011 16:26:17 GMT
This sounds potentially pretty bad. Is there any way to negotiate a shared administration of the "flashpoint temple" and the contested land surrounding it?
Modified to add -- I guess conceding shared administration would be a way of saying that the Thais, who seem to be the unprovoked aggressors in this situation, are somewhat in the right.
Difficult.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 23, 2011 2:16:21 GMT
The point is that the Thais don't want independent observers at the disputed places. Indonesia as ASEAN Chairman have offered to broker and send observers there. This was immediately welcomed by Cambodia.
The Thais have been dancing around the issue. The civilian part of the government says ok, the military part of the government says 'no way'.
And they used cluster bombs again yesterday.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 23, 2011 15:47:59 GMT
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 25, 2011 6:34:34 GMT
A balanced article, though they (and most other Western media) fall for the old 'Hindu' temple nomenclature that the Thais favour.
Yes, it was built as a Hindu temple but by Khmers. It remained in the Khmer empire until it was overrun by the Thais. It reverted to Khmer ownership under the French, until the Thais and the Japanese invaded Cambodia again during the second world war, by now it had been Buddhist for about 600 years. After the Thais and the Japanese were driven out of Cambodia by the French and Vietnamese it once again belonged to Cambodia, re- affirmed by the world court ruling in 1962.
The Thais calling it Hindu diminishes the Cambodian claim to it.
As if Westminster Abbey weren't British because it was built as a Catholic church.
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Post by lola on Apr 25, 2011 12:33:29 GMT
To restate the obvious: so especially sad to fight over a temple.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 25, 2011 15:07:26 GMT
It sounds as though the temple is a red-herring excuse, and that it's really a land grab attempt on the part of Thailand.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 19:35:25 GMT
And what is even more ridiculous is that it is such a small piece of land. It's not as though there were oil fields or gold mines there. But of course in Southeast Asia, every possible tourist attraction is a potential gold mine.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 26, 2011 2:28:29 GMT
It sounds as though the temple is a red-herring excuse, and that it's really a land grab attempt on the part of Thailand. Ahh, now you're getting to the point. The real reason behind the land grab is what's interesting Elections by the end of June in Thailand ;D The current government, instated by the military, is going to lose if they don't quickly focus on something other than domestic issues, a tried and tested method to win elections ;D Last year there were lots of theories floating about as to why the relatively big Thailand was making such an issue of these 4.8 square kms, it was suggested that it would be important for the marine boundaries in the Gulf of Thailand where there are oil deposits.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 26, 2011 3:21:26 GMT
Thailand Going Rogue Fighting over the disputed territory surrounding the Preah Vihear Temple along the Thai-Cambodia border resumed last Friday, with both sides trading artillery fire and accusations of targeting civilian villages throughout the weekend. The Associated Press reports 12 soldiers confirmed dead. The world may never know which side started the latest clash, since Thailand continues to resist allowing international observers to monitor the area. And both countries deserve some blame for stirring the pot at various times. Nevertheless, it has become increasingly clear that the Thai military is doing nothing to ease the tension. That much we know from the way that the military, and then Bangkok, vetoed initiatives to get the two sides talking. After the last major bout of fighting in February, Cambodia succeeded in bringing the matter to the United Nations Security Council, which promptly kicked it back to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Indonesia, the chair of Asean this year, has played shuttle diplomacy trying to bring the two sides together, but Bangkok continues to balk. That has allowed Cambodia to play the aggrieved and more reasonable party. Thailand's unwillingness to even contemplate compromise may be due to the broader impasse in its domestic politics. In 2008, the royalist People's Alliance for Democracy, more commonly known as the yellow shirts, took up the temple issue as a cudgel against the government of Samak Sundaravej. The same group has now turned on Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and is castigating him for not taking more aggressive action to recover the temple. Meanwhile, the military is positioning itself as the main defender of the monarchy and Thai sovereignty. Tension between the military and the civilian government has been mounting since Mr. Abhisit announced elections would be held within the next few months. Bangkok is rife with rumors that a coup is imminent. The military, palace and business elite all fear that supporters of deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra will win their fourth straight general election. The last three results were annulled by a coup and court rulings, and the red shirt supporters of Mr. Thaksin have become increasingly restive as a result of their disenfranchisement. Even if their Puea Thai Party wins, there is a strong chance they will not be allowed to form a government. So further unrest later this year seems likely. In this context, a fight with Cambodia might seem an appealing way out of the deadlock. A limited war with a much smaller neighbor could unify Thais, as the red shirts would feel pressure to get behind the military in a time of national crisis. Mr. Abhisit, who has never won an election and is widely regarded as a figurehead within Thailand, could be dispensed with, and elections pushed off until the glow of victory and massive public spending restore the Bangkok elite's popularity. Perhaps the Thai military understands how much could go wrong with such a scenario and is only engaging in brinksmanship. But even this runs the risk of accidental escalation. And once a conflict starts, Asean nations would be put in the impossible position of having to choose sides, which might tear the organization apart. Thailand's friends have a responsibility to dissuade the military from military adventures. It's also time they addressed the root cause of the problem. This conflict is a sign that the nation's internal political crisis is beginning to generate external costs, showing once again that Asean's credo of noninterference in domestic politics needs to be tempered with an awareness that promotion of democracy is part and parcel of regional stability. As long as the military is allowed to play its pivotal role in national politics, Thailand will fail to play its rightful role as a stabilizing force in Southeast Asia. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704677404576284680471555442.html
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2011 5:16:36 GMT
That is time-honoured electoral technique everywhere. In France, now that our little president has finally accepted the fact that he has no influence inside the country, he has started barking at the rest of the world like a Yorkshire terrier.
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Post by bjd on Apr 26, 2011 6:46:31 GMT
The military government in Argentina tried to take peoples' minds of the state of the country by invading the Falklands in 1982. It didn't do them any good.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 26, 2011 7:17:52 GMT
But Thatcher profited from that war if I'm not mistaken ;D
Though now there are rumours that the elections might be off completely. Good for the army (no need for a coup), good for the army's puppet, the PM (no need to get democratically elected so soon, his term ends in 2012).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 13:23:20 GMT
From Al Jazeera:
Fighting continued for a sixth day between Thai and Cambodian troops on Wednesday in an area near three disputed 12th-century temples, as talks between the two sides appeared to collapse.
At least 14 people, including at least one civilian, have been killed in the cross-border artillery fire in the Dangrek mountains within the past week, and 50,000 have arrived at evacuation centres.
The latest fighting began at 5am, and was continuing more than four hours later - with heavy shelling near the Ta Moan and Ta Krabey temples, Cambodia's defence ministry said.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 7:21:39 GMT
The border dispute is staying in the French newspapers every day now. It never used to do that.
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Post by hwinpp on May 4, 2011 9:15:44 GMT
The Cambodians have asked for an interpretation of their 1962 ruling and therein asked for provisional measures, such as a pull back of Thai combat troops from occupied land, etc. A date for the hearing has not been set.
The Thais will go berserk if the court finds they've been at fault since 2008.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 4, 2011 18:06:53 GMT
Elections by the end of June in Thailand The current government, instated by the military, is going to lose if they don't quickly focus on something other than domestic issues, a tried and tested method to win elections Though now there are rumours that the elections might be off completely. Can they do that? A date for the hearing has not been set. The Thais will go berserk if the court finds they've been at fault since 2008. Even though a date has not been set, is it still a given that there will be a hearing? If there is a hearing, there's no way the court won't find out everything back to 2008, right?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 18:49:43 GMT
Oh Bixa, naive little girl! In most of the world, elections are decided whenever the government decides they are appropriate. In most constitutional countries (such as in Europe or South America), there are very slightly flexible rules like "elections within 40 days of the dissolution of parliament" or "no later than 30 days after the death of the president," but in many other places they have the same rules but with a few little tricks along the lines of "depending on national security." This allows the powers in place to call or to delay elections, one month or one year.
I confess that as normal as I used to find the U.S., I now feel that their election dates engraved in stone are completely inappropriate. What happens if the candidate dies a week before the election? What happens if the president dies a month after the inauguration? Do people REALLY want the vice president in power for so long? Look at Gerald Ford, a president who was not ever elected, not even as vice president. The elections should have variable dates as needed!
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Post by hwinpp on May 5, 2011 3:36:48 GMT
If I knew how to post pdf's to a hosting site I'd then link them here. I've got a copy of the press release by the ICJ.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 5, 2011 4:38:23 GMT
HW, the only way I know how to do that is to take a screen shot of the open pdf file, paste it into paint.Net or a similar site, then save it to your computer. Once there, you can crop it, resize it, or whatever, then you can load it on your photo hosting site. (Theoretically, you could just copy the pdf url, then select "from the web" at your photo host site, but I have not been able to do that successfully with a pdf so far.)
What's ICJ, please?
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Post by hwinpp on May 5, 2011 9:46:51 GMT
International Court of Justice in the Hague.
I'll see what I can do. If you're really interested I can send it to anyone who PMs me their email addy.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 20:27:15 GMT
If the US would adhere to the ICJ, it would make things so much easier. Let's dream on...
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Post by hwinpp on May 6, 2011 3:53:01 GMT
Cambodia Must Pull out First, Insists AbishitThailand is throwing the ball back at Indonesia and Cambodia over the plan to deploy Indonesian observers in the disputed border area by making it a precondition that Cambodia pull out its troops and civilians first. "I don't know if Cambodia will agree to this," Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday, "But Indonesia should raise and discuss this issue with Cambodia". Earlier, Thailand was blamed for dragging its feet in the planned deployment. Abhisit yesterday said his government would not sign any document to give the green light for the Indonesian observers to come in for as long as the Cambodia did not agree to move its troops and citizens out of the 4.6squarekilometre overlapping area along Thai - Cambodian borderline. Abhisit said by allowing its people and soldiers to stay in the overlapping area, Cambodia had violated an important Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries. The Thai premier added that progresses from Indonesia's talks with Thailand and its talks with Cambodia would determine whether he would discuss the issue at the Asean meetings this weekend. Abhisit is scheduled to fly to Indonesia this evening to attend the Asean Summit. According to him, Thailand in fact has no objection against the proposed terms of reference (TOR) for the deployment of Indonesian observers. Indonesia, the current chair of Asean, has been trying to mediate in the border dispute between Cambodia and Thailand. Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said he would meet with his Thai and Cambodian counterparts in Jakarta today to discuss on the ToR on the sidelines of the Asean meetings. Border clashes between Thailand and Cambodia erupted in the overlapping area near the Preah Vihear Temple last month with casualties reported on both sides. To the two countries, the ancient Hindu temple has been a thorny issue. Thailand has long maintained that although the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled in 1962 that the Preah Vihear Temple belongs to Cambodia, the ruling does not say its sprawling complex is on the Cambodian soil too. Thailand was apparently upset when Cambodia unilaterally asked the the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation (Unesco) to inscribe the Preah Vihear Temple as a worldheritage on its soil a few years ago. Thailand has also strongly opposed to Cambodia's management plan of the Preah Vihear Temple and its sprawling complex. Last month, Cambodia went to ICJ asking it to clarify its 1962 ruling. The move prompted the Thai government to quickly form a legal team to handle the issue. Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya went to Europe earlier this week to consult foreign legal experts in preparations for the case. www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/05/06/national/Cambodia-must-pull-out-first-insists-Abhisit-30154688.htmlThe recent fighting was not in the area mentioned above but at least 150km further to the west. Another red herring by the Thai military.
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