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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2010 11:21:29 GMT
I saw a movie from Québec this morning (Les Amours Imaginaires), and, as is often the case, although the language is purportedly French, certain parts of it were subtitled in French. In the old country, we just don't always understand what those people are saying.
The three main characters generally spoke comprehensible French to each other, but in party scenes and certain 'interview' scenes, the Québec language was heard in all its glory and weirdness -- and was subtitled.
This made me wonder how the people of Québec regard the language. When you watch the news or any other serious program on Québec television, a European French speaker recognizes a slight accent, but all of the vocabulary is standard and fully comprehensible. In any other situation, you will find many of the Québecois totally modifying the pronunciation of standard words, sprinkling it with local slang and adding a dollop of English words on top.
And yet, I have never had a problem in Québec or Nouveau Brunswick when talking with anybody, so just about everybody seems capable of speaking 'standard' French -- when they want to.
I would imagine that the same situation must happen in far flung countries that speak Spanish and Portuguese. If I am not mistaken, I think that movies dubbed into Spanish often have multiple versions for different countries.
Not to mention the fact that the original "Mad Max" was dubbed from Australian into American for international release. (Mad Max 2 & 3 were filmed in 'international' English directly.)
With all of the new worldwide media, though, I would suspect that after 2 centuries or more of drifting apart, the scattered languages are now beginning to drift back together.
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Post by onlymark on Oct 2, 2010 12:11:04 GMT
I am aware that from the onset of MTV/internet more and more slang from the USA is becoming widespread. So much so, I suspect, that a lad transplanted from parts of the UK would be understood in many parts of the USA, whereas in my dim and distant past slang words were totally unique to the immediate area/group.
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Post by hwinpp on Oct 6, 2010 6:30:48 GMT
I watch Deutsche Welle TV here, they subtitle Swiss German into high German
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 6:49:11 GMT
Are there any bits that you might have trouble understanding otherwise?
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Post by onlymark on Oct 6, 2010 7:49:03 GMT
German I can mostly get, Schweizerdeutsch I can rarely get.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 6, 2010 16:03:37 GMT
My husband worked in the North Sea in the 70s. He claimed that the French asked the Cajuns to please speak English on the marine radio.
(subtitled)
(English & Cajun French)
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Post by bjd on Oct 6, 2010 16:22:27 GMT
Actually, I can pretty well understand the Cajun French. It just has a few English words thrown in from time to time. The worst accent is that of the interviewer on the second video.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 6, 2010 16:37:05 GMT
Yes, even I could hear her strong, halting American accent.
I was with an English visitor in New Orleans. We were at the flea market and met an elderly Cajun lady selling painted oyster shells. The lady and I had a short conversation. When we moved on, my guest said, "Well, that was absolutely wonderful!" I thought she meant the little scenes painted on the shells. She said, "No, no -- it was the way you would say something to her in English, then she'd answer in French and so on." I stopped and looked at her, amazed. "I don't speak or understand French. We were both speaking English!" She was equally amazed, saying, "I did not understand one word the lady said!"
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 12, 2010 18:18:05 GMT
Did anyone see this article about a previously unknown language? ... Koro speakers “are thoroughly mixed in with other local peoples and number perhaps no more than 800.”
Moreover, linguists are not sure how Koro has survived this long as a viable language. Dr. Harrison wrote: “The Koro do not dominate a single village or even an extended family. This leads to curious speech patterns not commonly found in a stable state elsewhere.”
By contrast, the Aka people number about 10,000 living in close relations with Koro speakers in a district of the state of Arunachal Pradesh, where at least 120 languages are spoken. Dr. Anderson said the coexistence of separate languages between two integrated groups that do not acknowledge an ethnic difference between them is highly unusual.This prompted me to go look at the thread about South American languages. Rikita has some interesting things to say in #8 there about how languages change, merge, and diverge.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 12, 2010 19:14:13 GMT
After a brain injury where I lost my ability to speak, I had to relearn to speak and understand my native language of English. It has been 4 years of speech therapy and I a still have more to learn. There have been a few obstacles, one being the accent of how I now speak and two the inability to understand slang, sarcasm and idioms. When visiting my sister in Barrie last week, we stopped to visit her at work and I met some of her co-workers. After I left one of them asked if I had come all the way from Quebec? She thought I had a french accent. This happens to me frequently. "Parlez vous francais?" While I can understand french spoken to me and read it, I cannot speak it either, frustrating. It is the slang and sarcasm that is the most troublesome. I am always guessing if a person is speaking a truth or telling me a joke. It is not pleasant and very tiresome but if I stop trying I do not know what will happen and always fear I am going to lose what I have gained. This board has been an experiment for me and so far a successful one. But, I do struggle sometimes with the sarcasm. I wish I understood it because some of you really seem to enjoy it and I know I am missing out on some interesting conversations.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 19:34:20 GMT
I have known a number of people who cannot understand sarcasm or irony. The use of smileys becomes very important in certain circumstances for that reason.
How horrifying to have lost the ability to speak. I have known two people who had a stroke and were never able to speak "properly" again. I would listen to them struggling to say something, and it was often just as big a struggle to understand them. And yet the brain functions normally and things that are written pose very few problems. It is strange to me that you can't understand slang, because they are just different words of the same language. Sarcasm and idioms are totally different, because you don't always need a brain injury to not be able to understand them.
I'm very glad that you find your presence successful here so far, mich64. Please do not hesitate to confront anyone (by PM if you prefer) if you think that something has been said wrong and requires more explanation.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 12, 2010 22:58:48 GMT
Thank you Kerouac for offering assistance to me. Bix has also been quite helpful and kind. I come to this board each day with excitement to see and read and am enjoying the learning experience very much. I like that I can participate in a conversation. I have what has been explained as a concrete brain, I have no abstract abilities. I do not understand slang words and when used in a sentence I become confused. What was frustrating to me was that at first I could not communicate at all. I had a flat affect which meant I had no facial expressions. The doctors and my family would speak around me and I could understand them but I could not communicate as I could not write as well. But I have progressed quite a bit in the last 4 years. I now speak, write and have learnt math. Cheers
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Post by hwinpp on Oct 13, 2010 4:59:02 GMT
Are there any bits that you might have trouble understanding otherwise? When they speak in places like Zurich or Basel I understand it. But for DW TV the Swiss usually make a conscious effort to speak understandably, I'd think even they would feel insulted if their speech were considered unintelligible and needed to be sub- titled.
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Post by joanne28 on Oct 13, 2010 21:40:32 GMT
It's interesting that I found the Cajun speakers had fairly strong English accents. I found the first gentleman almost unintelligible.
My sister's first mother-in-law was Acadian and perfectly bilingual in English and French. But when she spoke English she had a very heavy French accent and when she spoke French she had a very heavy English accent.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 15, 2010 2:28:07 GMT
Thank you for those excellent insights, Mich. I suppose spoken sarcasm is mostly a matter of inflection to cue the listener that the speaker is being sarcastic. However, some kinds of mild sarcasm -- saying something to mean the opposite -- are so common that there is very little different inflection. An example would be someone saying "Oh yeah, that's really going to happen!" when what they mean is "That could never happen!"
If you don't mind my asking, if you aren't able to automatically detect sarcasm, do you have to memorize such sayings and mark them as "sarcastic" in your mind?
Also, on a message board such as this, do the smilies help at all to cue what is really meant?
Not only can you participate in conversations, you always add a great deal to them!
Joanne, that is interesting about the Acadian mother-in-law. I always noticed that when I walked past a group of people conversing in Louisiana Acadian French, they sounded American except for the actual words spoken. But as you heard, they have a heavy accent when speaking English.
I often wonder how much of any accent is actually rhythm, rather than different pronunciation.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 15, 2010 15:12:42 GMT
Hi Bix, sometimes the faces help, sometimes they can confuse me more. I know why I add them, but someone else might not be adding them for the same reason I am, or using them for what I interpret them to be.
But being this is a written forum, I am not as confused by the additional factors that can distract me in a spoken conversation such as inflection, facial expressions or multiple people speaking.
I have not had any success attempting to memorize. My speech therapists tried for months with flash cards and pictures and repetition exercises. I do have some success with certain cues, but without someone with me who knows the cues that is not helpful, it does not give me any independence.
My speech therapist is pleased that I have engaged in this forum. Even though I am not using my voice, I am trying to expand my abilities in conversation.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 15, 2010 15:23:46 GMT
Mich64, having read this I have huge admiration for you.
I wish you every success and, although I don't know how, I would always be happy to help you.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 15, 2010 15:50:55 GMT
Thank you for your offer Mickthecactus, but be assured that everyone involved in this board is helping me every single day. I am forever grateful to you all. It provides me with a type of Independence that I have not had in 4 years. I am participating all on my own, no one assisting me, it is a wonderful feeling. Thank you.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 15, 2010 15:53:07 GMT
Thank you for your offer Mickthecactus, but be assured that everyone involved in this board is helping me every single day. I am forever grateful to you all. It provides me with a type of Independence that I have not had in 4 years. I am participating all on my own, no one assisting me, it is a wonderful feeling. Thank you. Top girl. Keep it up........
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Post by Jazz on Oct 15, 2010 17:14:03 GMT
Mich, you are an exceptional woman. Until I read your posts today in this thread, there was no indication whatsoever that you are working through this problem. I can’t imagine how overwhelmed you must have felt as it all unfolded. Given all of your writings here, you must be the pride of your doctors and have become, for me, a mentor for courage and resilience.
For all of us, in the best of times, it is easy to misinterpret what is written online. Often a post sails by me, completely misunderstood, and it is not until days later that it dawns on me what the author was actually trying to say. My forum experience is rather limited and I have always had a problem with how thoughts are often miscommunicated and misunderstood. For me, I depend heavily on personal interaction, it is much clearer to me with the benefits of expression, body language, intonation, nuance etc. It is fascinating your comment about these aspects being somewhat confusing and that for now, this is the perfect place for you to be with written communication.
You’re certainly not alone. Irony and sarcasm seem to be the most difficult to express and are often totally missed. Emoticons sometimes help, but they can be irritating, definitely they can be come a lazy way of avoiding written expression. . Slang is also tricky, sometimes because it is not in your native language, sometimes it is in your language, but not your cultural or age milieu. Please feel free to ask questions online or PM me about anything you want to discuss. You are a special part of the Port and I’m happy that you’re enjoying the experience. Its so exciting to know that you are enjoying your first independence in four years! Bonne chance mon amie.
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Post by onlymark on Oct 15, 2010 17:23:43 GMT
mich, sarcasm, irony and inappropriate comments are my speciality. Not that I'm any good at them, but it amuses me to try. Also flights of fancy, exaggeration and tongue in cheek story telling in such a way that I try and twist the impossible into the believable. Not always successfully though and the class of person on here soon sees through my attempts. The point of what I'm trying to say is that you should rarely believe what I post and don't spend time and effort trying to decipher it. Your efforts are better spent on posts that are more worthwhile.
And I admire your courage. (That is true)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 17:29:16 GMT
Even though Mark is saying the opposite, it is often rewarding not to ignore him.
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Post by onlymark on Oct 15, 2010 17:32:32 GMT
I was trying to be sincere! Really. I tie myself up in knots sometimes, never mind anyone else trying to read it.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 15, 2010 18:35:19 GMT
Thank you all for the encouragement to continue and I will. Jazz, Merci beau coup Mon Amie! I am grateful for the understanding and kindness in your comments. I am, however, just a woman seeking anyway possible to recover, learn and engage language. I am far from exceptional, but my family, doctors and therapists are encouraged by my actions whereas I just have the instinct to keep searching. Perhaps this is an actual new form of therapy that could be studied by professionals that could assist others in my predicament. onlymark, you can add compassionate to the description of yourself as well, thank you. To educate those interested the following are a combination of words that make me stop listening to a person as I try to put them into the context of my current knowledge: "flights of fancy" I have no idea what this could mean. "tongue in cheek" same problem. These are difficult sentences for me to understand because my abilities are concrete, literal. So in a verbal discussion with someone, I would immediately stop listening and concentrate on those words. But, I believe that daily constant consumption of "reading" this board might help me. All the posts here are worthwhile to me. Thank you.
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Post by onlymark on Oct 15, 2010 19:36:33 GMT
"flights of fancy" - An idea, narrative, suggestion, etc. which is extremely imaginative and which appears to be entirely unrealistic, untrue, or impractical.
"tongue in cheek" - not intended seriously
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Post by onlymark on Oct 15, 2010 19:53:31 GMT
mich, as far as I'm aware you seem to have difficulty understanding what I understand to be 'tropes'. Or are there forms of it you do understand? A trope is - language used in a figurative or nonliteral sense Now, I'm not 100% sure myself as to what a trope is, but as far as I'm aware, it seems to fit. If I have the understanding of the word wrong then ignore what I've said.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 15, 2010 21:38:45 GMT
Hi onlyMark, thank you for the explanations of your words used that I did not understand. I have never heard of the word " tropes" but I can understand the description you provided. Figurative and non literal are terms I frequently hear my therapist use when she is speaking with my husband about my situation. I apologize to Kerouac for his topic being averted from its intent of discussion. Sorry Kerouac.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 16, 2010 1:22:48 GMT
I never knew the word trope, either. (I looked it up and the adjective form is tropical, pronounced with a long o.)
Mich, you were not all off topic. Not only is your situation and your way of dealing with it interesting in itself, you made us all think about how we use and perceive language.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 12:22:33 GMT
Oh, here's a test, a rather accurate one I think, for testing your English dialect and grammar: Which English?The test thinks I speak a Canadian dialect, perhaps Irish or Scottish. After English, my birth language could be Norwegian or Swedish(!)
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Post by htmb on Jul 16, 2014 13:43:47 GMT
I got boring old American Standard.
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