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Post by Jazz on Nov 26, 2010 7:08:30 GMT
Where to start?
Let’s begin with Retirement Age in France. The object of the current demonstrations is that it will now be 62 instead of 60? With benefits? Lucky for the French, even at 62. I don’t understand the involvement of the highschool and university students, or, the governments ‘fear’ of their participation. The students are young, innocent, and know absolutely nothing of the retirement issue. (perhaps their knowledge comes from some class? ) But, certainly not from life experience. I find students demonstrating re: retirement issues, a joke. They have no idea what they are demonstrating about. They don’t. Forty years from now, when it becomes relevant to them, their world will have changed.
I agree that there should be reform. Our retirement age in Canada is older, and rising by the year. I like this. Personally, I will work until I die and this is fine. I have no wish whatsoever to have some governmental committee ‘put me to pasture’ or make decisions for me. Do you?
The following quotation made me think,
---Kerouac: ‘The main thing that people have been saying is that one size does not fit all: people who started working at age 16 should be able to retire earlier, as should people doing difficult jobs. When people started mentioning things like that, the government said "don't worry -- we'll take care of all of those little details!" -- except they didn't.’… ,
This makes perfect sense to me, in all ways. But, it never happens.=There is no special compensation for those began to work at 16, or for those who had very demanding jobs. Why not? There does not appear to be any ‘reward’….begin to work early (16), work through university, work for 30 years, 17 hours a day, and then….? Nothing. 'Who' is taking care of 'what' details? What happens now? Nothing.
This is where young people need to take nothing for granted and think ahead. My profession for 25-30 years was not manual, but highly creative, stressful and demanding, in the film business.
Tuition fees: At the University of Toronto (my university) the current fees are today about $10,000/year, plus books and residence. Possibly 18,000CDN, or 14,000E. Similar, I think, for McGill (Quebec) and Waterloo. The tuition fees in France are Astoundingly Cheap, but a wonderful investment.
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Post by bjd on Nov 26, 2010 7:18:59 GMT
What Kerouac is quoting are the "basic" fees -- you have to add social security of 180€ plus about 200€ if you want complementary insurance, library fees, sports fees (obligatory), various others that I don't remember offhand.
Furthermore, my son is doing a Master's in business at a university related institute, so the fees are lower than in a business school, but to the normal fees, you have to add 500€ (in 2nd year) to have access to online information, various seminars, etc.
So, sure, it's cheap compared to the States or Canada, but not quite as cheap as that. Plus, they have to live, and buy textbooks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2010 8:49:01 GMT
Frankly, I did not imagine that anybody would believe that the tuition fees that I posted were the only amounts to be paid to go to university. Nevertheless, it indicates that the professors' salaries are completely covered by the Ministry of Education and at least it is not the students who are paying them.
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Post by hwinpp on Nov 26, 2010 9:07:22 GMT
When I left I was paying 250DM per term, that included a ticket to use all public transportation within city limits.
I was covered by my parents' medical insurance.
We didn't actually pay tuition fees. We paid some kind of service charge. University was free.
Nowadays I think they're paying 500EUR per term. So France is a bit cheaper, good on them. I believe the first tertiary education degree should be free or paid for by the government.
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Post by bjd on Nov 26, 2010 12:25:01 GMT
Students in France have to pay their own social security once they are 19. Before that they are covered by their parents' insurance. In Toulouse last year they started a student travel card that cost 10€/month for those under 25. Before, once out of high school, students had to pay for public transport. In Paris too there is some discount card for students.
In France, it's usually better to be under 25 or over 65 if you want to move around.
When I first went to visit Germany, I was amazed to hear about students who spent 9 or 10 years getting their undergraduate degrees. In Canada, people tried to finish quickly, including taking classes in summer because of the cost. So I'm not sure that the first years should be completely free. Knowing human nature, there will always be those who will take advantage and not do anything, just retain student status for the perks. And I don't see why those who are working, and didn't necessarily get the opportunity to go to university, should pay for it.
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Post by onlymark on Nov 26, 2010 14:11:14 GMT
When I first went to visit Germany, I was amazed to hear about students who spent 9 or 10 years getting their undergraduate degrees. When I first met my wife who was educated in Germany I didn't know this was quite normal. In the UK it only takes a few years, 3 or 4 usually I think. I knew she was then 31 years old and I asked her what she did for a living. She replied, "I've just finished my Degree at University" I said, "If it's took you this long you can't be very clever then". I still can't work out why she married me.
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Post by bjd on Nov 26, 2010 17:31:27 GMT
I said, "If it's took you this long you can't be very clever then". I still can't work out why she married me. This is a trap for a sarcastic comment, isn't it, Mark?
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Post by onlymark on Nov 26, 2010 17:56:16 GMT
I'll tee them up. Anyone anyone can score from it.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 26, 2010 19:57:58 GMT
What amount of public support university education should get is certainly a matter for debate, but I can't agree with the point about working adults subsidizing students' educations. By that token, as a non-parent I should never have had to pay taxes for primary or secondary education either. However education and an educated public is a public good, and a benefit to all society, whether economically or culturally.
As for Germany, I believe the emphasis that country has put on professional/vocational training as well as academic education may well be a factor in its success. I do think there are a lot of young people who attend university to conform to the expectations of others who might well be happier - and make more money for that matter - working in a qualified skilled trade.
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Post by bjd on Nov 26, 2010 20:01:13 GMT
I didn't mean that taxpayers shouldn't subsidize education -- at university or otherwise. I just think students should be expected to pay for their studies to a certain extent.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2010 23:12:02 GMT
Jazz's comments:
I absolutely agree. Retirement age doesn't affect them at all. They may be doing it to show sympathy, but really they don't have a clue as what it's really all about. And won't for many years to come.
The fees in Ontario (including living expenses, books etc), are about the same as here in NB then.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2010 23:15:46 GMT
I didn't mean that taxpayers shouldn't subsidize education -- at university or otherwise. I just think students should be expected to pay for their studies to a certain extent. Here in NB, students are expected to work over the summer holidays (at least), and perhaps part-time during the Uni. year also, to help with costs. That is unless they have wealthy parents who pay everything for them, which can be the case, but not usually. The students who are lucky enough to have parents who pay everything for them are usually the ones who come from overseas - China for-instance.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 27, 2010 1:27:37 GMT
The reason young students in France are protesting about pension age is because they want to be sure to have jobs once they graduate. It has little to do with pensioners' conditions.
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Post by hwinpp on Nov 27, 2010 4:06:41 GMT
What I described above re university education was very general. 1. It used to be completely free (apart from that service charge) until I was well into my studies. Then it was limited to the first degree and now it's limited to a reasonable amount of semesters. 2. Students still needed to work to pay for their living expenses unless they came from affluent families, same as what Deyana said. 3. For those that came from families that couldn't support them there's a kind of government pocket money scheme that has to be repaid when the student has attained a proper 'life position' (anywhere from between 5- 10 years after graduating) with no interest. Mark, your wife certainly is smarter than me, I was even older But I enjoyed it...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2010 6:15:45 GMT
Anyway, the last (?) protests of the year took place last Tuesday. Social protesters will be resting until at least mid-January in all likelihood.
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Post by lola on Nov 27, 2010 13:18:17 GMT
Street protests in the US lately seem to be by lower and middle orders demanding even more money for rich folk. From what I can tell. Which seems backwards, somehow.
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Post by bjd on Nov 27, 2010 16:03:35 GMT
Lola, I was talking about that with some Dutch friends the other day -- we all had a hard time understanding why some many people in the States seem to vote against their own interests.
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Post by lola on Nov 28, 2010 2:09:27 GMT
bjd, I don't quite understand it either, but to make a stab:
Well-meaning, church-going people have been sold an entire bill of goods, idealistically roped into thinking one party is virtuous and the other one is full of baby-killers. Churches have been telling people for years how to vote.
Another factor, I think, is that some people envision their tax money being given to welfare cadillac drivers in the cities while they, the honest ones, work hard for a living even as money is snatched out of their paychecks. This plays into anti-tax sentiment. Meanwhile a tiny percent grow disgustingly richer while mostly not doing anything that I would recognize as working hard, and tax laws help them pile it up.
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Post by myrt on Nov 28, 2010 9:39:19 GMT
I went to Uni in the late 70s and, although I had a full grant I still had to work through all the long vacations and struggled to make ends meet - which was only what I expected. I think the problems the current generation is undergoing is the atrocious standards of teaching in the universities, the ridiculous proliferation of mediocre courses, the lengthening of the amount of time each course takes (to maximise the profits), and the truly shocking amounts of money students pay in rent both privately and in uni/college digs. Plus the fact that there is an ever decreasing number of casual jobs available to students to supplement their incomes....... And in this country, the income point at which students must start to repay is currently set at £21.000 - which is not much at the present standards of living costs....
If you treat places of learning as businesses, and the students in them as units then you eventually end up with a system where the actual education standards are secondary to the profits made, and where the richness and depth of Learning and Research become nothing more than a means to attract more money and kudos. It makes me sick................
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Post by lola on Nov 28, 2010 13:41:43 GMT
In what sense would a U in the UK be treated as a business? I'm familiar with departments plumping up their classes by convincing students to major in that field -- that happened to my aimless gullible self with music for a year, a field I had no business pursuing.
Certainly there are prestigious institutions here in the US that could be called diploma factories, but was hoping things would be more high minded elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2010 15:23:36 GMT
In France, there is a lot of lobbying by certain interest groups to make universities and university research concentrate only on things that will make money, and to discourage pure research or intellectual pursuits. While I think we all agree that there have been periods with too many literature or history majors, who didn't even plan to become teachers as a finality, I think it is extremely dangerous to turn universities into money machines, just as I don't believe the hospitals should be money machines either.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 28, 2010 17:48:28 GMT
I, of course, studied Italian literature AND history...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2010 18:54:27 GMT
There you go!
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Post by Kimby on Dec 22, 2010 16:46:45 GMT
Lola, I was talking about that with some Dutch friends the other day -- we all had a hard time understanding why some many people in the States seem to vote against their own interests. I call it the lottery syndrome. People who HOPE to be rich someday (though their best chance is winning the lottery) don't want their future imagined earnings to be taken away in taxes. Well-meaning, church-going people have been sold an entire bill of goods, idealistically roped into thinking one party is virtuous and the other one is full of baby-killers. Churches have been telling people for years how to vote. Churches are technically not allowed to proselytize politically. They risk losing their tax-exempt status. However, many of these good Christians watch Fox TV which is under no such restraints. An expression I love: If you want to live like a Republican, vote like a Democrat.(I'm not sure it really makes sense, but it kinda sorta does if you don't think about it too hard.)
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Post by bjd on Dec 22, 2010 19:50:40 GMT
I don't even understand what that is supposed to mean -- thinking hard or not.
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Post by Kimby on Dec 22, 2010 19:54:56 GMT
I think it means "don't vote Republican" unless you're already rich.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 20:05:26 GMT
Democrats steal from the rich and give to the poor. ;D If only!
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Post by Kimby on Dec 22, 2010 20:35:03 GMT
At this point in time, all of us are stealing from future generations. So not fair!
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