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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 14:39:37 GMT
Hello again. Interesting times. I'm with the internet for a couple of days then I'll no doubt lose it again as I move from Spain to Germany. I'm catching upon things at last and have an English news channel.
Anyway, one comment - it was reported, "something historical would happen today". It did. A lot of the world had a view of Middle East politics for it's true self. It is slippery, unpredictable and maybe folks will begin to realise that there is no 'Party', no 'Country', nobody does anything for the good of either to the detriment of themselves. It is all about 'what is in it for me'. Politics, business, education, they are all the same. If the person doesn't benefit, then it doesn't happen.
Mubarak is now in Sharm el Sheik and there is an announcement that we must all stand by for a message 'from the office of the President'. Another resignation opportunity? I think not.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 11, 2011 14:42:35 GMT
Hello Mark! Really great to hear from you and to get some insight from someone who's lived in the hot spot.
Re: your second paragraph -- I gave a cynical snort when I read it. The NYTimes Quote of the Day was from Mubarak's speech: "This is not about me."
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 15:15:29 GMT
Nothing as regards the selfish goings on of politicians are really anything abnormal in politics in any nation, it's just the degree of it that is different. Mubarak is just taking the theory to the extreme. It's the same with many things in the country. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary as regards having corruption, police abuse, restriction on free speech etc, it is part of the 'norm' but it is always that in comparison to it in westernised countries, where it does occur, but in a minor way, it is far more prevalent in Egypt. None of it is new, it's just taken far further.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 16:29:21 GMT
I eat my words at #210.
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Post by lola on Feb 11, 2011 16:59:45 GMT
wow.
I think we'll be hearing the phrase "thrown under the bus" over the next few days.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 11, 2011 17:49:50 GMT
How appropriate ~~ I wasn't monitoring the news because there is a mason working in my house.
Got on here and heard it first from Mark ~~ thanks.
JOY!!!
Congratulations to the heroic people of Egypt. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out.
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Post by lola on Feb 11, 2011 17:58:37 GMT
Yes, Mark. I was out walkng, and after I read your post I turned on the radio. Also now glad I can watch al-Jazeera English on YouTube. The best party in the world right now.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 18:15:30 GMT
Bixa - Is a mason a posh word for a bricklayer? Or is he attending to your cleavage? (proper masonry term by the way).
In actually nipped out for a quick walk and came back and saw it. I'll always remember that the time when his reign ended I was probably sizing up the Menu del Dia in the window of a Chinese restaurant. Not bad value actually.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 11, 2011 18:28:48 GMT
*snork* Yes -- bricklayer. I had the Spanish word (which surely comes from Arabic -- albañil) stuck in my head when I tapped that out. But I think mason is a standard US word for someone plying that trade. (just looked it up here: www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=albanil They give bricklayer as first choice for translation) I feel cheated that I missed the actual announcement -- all 13 seconds of it -- as I've been so enthralled by this whole process. Bet you wish you hadn't gone on vacation!
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 18:42:56 GMT
I'm certainly glad I didn't stay in Egypt and a holiday is good at any time. I was in France when Princess Diana died and didn't know about it and I was on a Greek island on 9/11 and missed that for a couple of days. However, 13 seconds is no excuse. It's about the same amount of time I devote to sex including foreplay and the shower after, plus an extra second or two for a cuddle.
Anyway, we'll see what happens now and how involved the Army will get in the day to day running of the country. And what it will mean for freedom of the press and all the things Mubarak had a downer on. What will happen to the state of emergency that has been in force for 30 years? (this gives amazing powers to the State to do virtually what they want - a more powerful version of the US 'in the interests of national security' trampling over anything else).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 18:49:03 GMT
I missed it all because I was watching a game show at the nursing home, followed by "Brothers & Sisters" and all of their tedious problems, and then I had to go pick up the rental car for tomorrow, and then buy groceries, so I am still digesting all of this.
What's fun, though, is that in my own life this might be important, because on Tuesday I will be negotiating the future of the company versus the 'Country Manager France, Spain, Portugal' and since he is from one of the countries scared shitless the most by recent events, he is not going to be feeling very secure. At our microscopic level, we are an exact reproduction of the recent situation of Tunisia & Egypt -- corruption, dictatorship, favoritism, lying, cheating, hiding reality -- you name it, we have it -- the employees all know it and he knows it, too. Since I am the president of the labor relations committee and also the trade union delegate, I am going to put a magnifying glass on his little testicles the size of peas.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 11, 2011 18:58:51 GMT
However, 13 seconds is no excuse. It's about the same amount of time I devote to sex including foreplay and the shower after, plus an extra second or two for a cuddle. I take it you don't smoke after sex. *drumroll*cymbal crash* Yes, putting the army in charge could backfire big time in terms of the freedoms being sought. Kerouac, you are definitely pumped for your meeting on Tuesday. ;D
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 19:55:43 GMT
K2, set the alarm on your mobile so it goes off during the meeting. Then pretend to answer it, handing it to the Manager saying, "There's a Mr Mubarak for you offering advice".
Do I smoke after sex? I've never really looked.
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Post by fumobici on Feb 11, 2011 20:10:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 21:16:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 21:17:32 GMT
I am usually so sick of all of the honking in Cairo, but that sounds like music to me today.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 11, 2011 22:23:11 GMT
At least we can turn the volume down from here.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 13, 2011 14:01:06 GMT
After the joy, things have not settled down. This story hasn't hit google news yet -- I've pasted the whole story, but if you check this link later, it will probably be an updated version: news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110213/wl_nm/us_egyptCairo protesters flood into squareBy Marwa Awad and Dina Zayed 25 minutes ago CAIRO (Reuters) – Thousands of protesters streamed back into Cairo's Tahrir Square on Sunday after the army tried to disperse them and gunfire was heard near the Interior Ministry where police were demonstrating over wages. "The army and people are united" and "Revolution, revolution until victory," the demonstrators chanted, after military police had told them to take down tents and let normal life return. Police officers, emboldened by the protests that led to the downfall of Hosni Mubarak, gathered to demand higher pay and a security guard said warning shots had been fired in the air. The police force was pulled off the streets when it lost control of anti-government protests last month. Some have held their own protests and sit-ins since Mubarak's overthrow on Friday, seeking higher wages and immunity from prosecution. Egypt's military rulers earlier ordered protesters to leave Tahrir Square, a symbol of the revolt that toppled Mubarak, to let traffic flow and allow commuters to get back to work in an economy that has been damaged by the tumult. "The army is the backbone of Egypt. Their solution is not to remove us from the square," said a protester over loudspeakers, as the army moved in, pushing and occasionally lashing out with sticks. "They must respond to our demands." After minor scuffles, the protesters regained some space and more arrived. The Arab world's most populous country is taking its first tentative steps toward democracy and protest organizers are forming a Council of Trustees to defend the revolution and negotiate with a military that wants life to return to normal. "We do not want any protesters to sit in the square after today," Mohamed Ibrahim Moustafa Ali, the head of military police, told protesters, while soldiers removed tents from the square, the epicenter of opposition to Mubarak's 30-year rule. An army captain, who asked not to be named, said the military wanted to call time on the protests. "We need to tend to our regular jobs," he said. "The general order is not use physical force with protesters, but there is no telling what may happen when tempers flare. Firing is absolutely forbidden." Egypt's cabinet, appointed when the 82-year-old president was still in office, would not undergo a major reshuffle and would stay to oversee the political transition to civilian rule in the coming months, a cabinet spokesman told Reuters. A cabinet meeting, due later on Sunday, could provide some answers to a protest movement hungry for change after the momentous revolution that shocked and enthralled the Middle East, sending a warning to autocratic rulers across the region. "The shape of the government will stay until the process of transformation is done in a few months, then a new government will be appointed based on the democratic principles in place," the spokesman said, adding some portfolios might change hands. "The main task of this government is to restore security and order and also start the economic process, and to take care of day-to-day life," he said. "PEACEFULLY, PEACEFULLY" To reinforce the message, soldiers and military police in the early hours broke up the mass of protesters in Tahrir into groups to let traffic flow for the first time in two weeks. Protesters said soldiers had detained more than 30 people and taken them to an army holding area around the Egyptian Museum, which houses a unique collection of ancient artifacts, next to the square. The army had no immediate comment. The crowd chanted "peacefully, peacefully" to the troops whose mission on the first day of Egypt's working week was to let commuters through. Tanks and armored cars were positioned around the square where banners still hung demanding regime change and where people were crowding around a makeshift memorial to about 300 people killed in the revolt. Volunteers were clearing rubble. The high command has given no timetable for transition but tried to reassure with a statement on Saturday affirming a commitment to democracy and international treaties, aimed particularly at Israel with which Egypt has a peace treaty. The military's strategy was to calm the nation and the world about its future intentions and, in the short term, to ensure law was being enforced after the disgraced police melted away, having failed to crush the protest with teargas and batons. SWIFT POLICE RETURN Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, head of the military council, met ministers on Saturday and stressed the need for an immediate return to normality. Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq said: "The first priority, no question about it, is security. An equally important priority is to provide the elements needed for the daily life of citizens." Interior Minister Mahmoud Wagdy, with whom Tantawi discussed "the speedy return of the police to duty", said on Saturday 13,000 prisoners who walked out of prison in the early days of the uprising against Mubarak were still on the run. Some traffic police were on Cairo streets on Sunday beside soldiers and tanks guarding intersections and key buildings. The army said it respected the demands of protesters who drove Mubarak from power. It has also urged them to go home now that their main goal had been met to let normal life resume. Anti-Mubarak protests erupted on January 25 and traffic stopped flowing through Tahrir after January 28, one of the most violent days of the uprising. Sunday's early morning violence did not last long, but the army action, backed by military police, split demonstrators who had previously controlled the square into smaller groups. "In the square, in the square, we demands our rights in the square," some chanted as soldiers corralled the crowd. MILITARY PLEDGES Despite Mubarak's resignation, some protesters have said they plan to stay in the square to ensure the military council keeps its promises on transition. They plan a big demonstration next Friday to celebrate the revolution and honor those killed. Protesters want the immediate abolition of emergency law that has been used by Mubarak's security apparatus to stifle opposition and dissent for three decades, the release of all political prisoners, and free and fair elections. "There is no enmity between the people and armed forces ... We ask you not to attack our sons. This is not the (behavior) of the armed forces. This is a peaceful protest," one protester said on loudspeakers. "We demand that the armed forces release all our sons that have been arrested in Tahrir." Some passers-by felt the time for protests was over. "Haven't they got what they want? Can someone explain to me what is left of their demands?" asked one bystander. However, Jihad Laban, an accountant, said much work remained to make sure the revolution did not squander what it had gained. "We stood by the army in their revolution," he said, alluding to the 1952 coup that toppled the British-backed monarchy. "They need to stand with us in ours. "The goal was never just to get rid of Mubarak. The system is totally corrupt and we won't go until we see some real reforms. I am going to be buried in Tahrir, I am here for my children. Egypt is too precious to walk away now." (Reporting by Marwa Awad, Edmund Blair, Alexander Dziadosz, Shaimaa Fayed, Andrew Hammond, Alistair Lyon, Sherine El Madany, Tom Perry, Yasmine Saleh, Patrick Werr, Jonathan Wright and Dina Zayed, Writing by Peter Millership; editing by Andrew Dobbie)
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 14, 2011 14:02:51 GMT
If anyone is interested, the Voice of American Middle East page has a beautifully uncluttered design, seems to be quickly updated, plus affords easy access to a great deal of related content. There is also a ticker tape of international news running at the top of the page. www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Part of the current lead story there: Egyptian pro-democracy activist Wael Ghonim says the country's new military rulers have promised him that a referendum will be held on a revised constitution in two months.
Ghonim and blogger Amr Salama posted a note on their website saying they secured the commitment in talks with the military council that took control of Egypt from President Hosni Mubarak when he resigned last Friday. They described Sunday's meeting as encouraging.
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Post by bjd on Feb 14, 2011 15:37:57 GMT
Good up to date info on the France 24 site. They have an Arabic language sister site, so are well-informed. www.france24.com/en/
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 16, 2011 17:32:11 GMT
That is a good, useful site, too, Bjd -- thanks! In the "wind of change" thread in Port & Starboard, Kerouac mentioned the most recent tumult blowing through the entire region. It's also alluded to in this article from a couple of hours ago. It's very hard to decide how to feel about how the Egyptian army is proceeding. One part of the brain says that of course it would be efficient to wait to protest until the country's affairs are in order. But there is an alarm going off as well, that warns this could be the beginning of yet more repression.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 16, 2011 19:21:40 GMT
My view is get the Army out of power as soon as possible. They have been the power behind the scene for too many years. I'm afraid that once they get a taste for being at the front of it they'll be even harder to topple. I don't want anarchy, but chaos is a better alternative to the Army as out of the chaos will come order, whereas out of the Army will come misery.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 16, 2011 19:43:54 GMT
That really puts it in perspective, Mark. I realize that the army is respected and liked in Egypt, but it's a lion, not a pet kitty cat.
It also seems that after so long being tamped down, the people should be allowed to be somewhat rowdy as they move toward a new society.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 16, 2011 20:05:26 GMT
In the past (thirty odd years) the Army in Egypt have been fairly benign as they've had the President as their man. There's not been much need for them to do much anyway, everything has come to them, especially billions of American dollars. I fear that if they sense they are going to be sidelined by democracy they'll be hard pushed to give up their privileged position. I mean, who wouldn't? Just look at how hard Mubarak clung on to power whilst he had the backing of the Army, he wasn't THE Army, so just think how hard, if they want to, the Army will fight if they feel they will lose out.
I just can't see really how this will pan out over the next year or so. I tend to feel the Army will employ delaying tactics that become more and more transparent and obvious to the international press but will take a lot longer to be so for the common man. I asked on the TT, and got no real answer, as to naming countries that have passed from how Egypt was to a stable democracy successfully. I ask because I don't know the history of all countries, not that there aren't any. There are, aren't there?
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Post by bjd on Feb 16, 2011 20:18:50 GMT
In today's Herald Tribune, there is an editorial comparing developments after "revolutions" in Indonesia, the Philippines and what might happen in Egypt. The writer was comparing what kind of political situations existed, participation of any political parties, the role of the military, etc.
It's true that the army hasn't needed to be in the forefront in Egypt up till now since Mubarak was out there and they certainly had their fingers in many economic pies, not only the billions in US aid. One supposition I read was that they wouldn't mind having a civilian government in front, as long as they could maintain their power in the background.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 20:23:18 GMT
The first thing that came to Europeans minds was when the military deposed Salazar in 1974, gave independence to the African colonies in 1975 and organized elections within a year, and then returned the country to civilian rule in 1976.
On the down side, rather small Portugal also had to digest the "return" of 1 million refugees of Portuguese origin from Africa, and it was not easy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 20:25:09 GMT
In today's Herald Tribune, there is an editorial comparing developments after "revolutions" in Indonesia, the Philippines and what might happen in Egypt. The writer was comparing what kind of political situations existed, participation of any political parties, the role of the military, etc. It's true that the army hasn't needed to be in the forefront in Egypt up till now since Mubarak was out there and they certainly had their fingers in many economic pies, not only the billions in US aid. One supposition I read was that they wouldn't mind having a civilian government in front, as long as they could maintain their power in the background. They basically just don't want to lose their privileges and parallel economy, as well as the 1.5 billion dollars that the U.S. has been giving them every year.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 16, 2011 20:26:41 GMT
I'd go for that. A fair compromise and it would be a typical Arabic compromise of everyone saving face. It'd look like there was a democracy and the Army would retain their influence.
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Post by gertie on Feb 16, 2011 20:33:24 GMT
In the past (thirty odd years) the Army in Egypt have been fairly benign as they've had the President as their man. There's not been much need for them to do much anyway, everything has come to them, especially billions of American dollars. I fear that if they sense they are going to be sidelined by democracy they'll be hard pushed to give up their privileged position. I mean, who wouldn't? Just look at how hard Mubarak clung on to power whilst he had the backing of the Army, he wasn't THE Army, so just think how hard, if they want to, the Army will fight if they feel they will lose out. I just can't see really how this will pan out over the next year or so. I tend to feel the Army will employ delaying tactics that become more and more transparent and obvious to the international press but will take a lot longer to be so for the common man. I asked on the TT, and got no real answer, as to naming countries that have passed from how Egypt was to a stable democracy successfully. I ask because I don't know the history of all countries, not that there aren't any. There are, aren't there? Forgive me for being confused here, but I have a few questions regarding the situation in Egypt. I just don't see how anything has improved there, I am sorry to say. First, wasn't this vice president who's been left in charge the VP under Mubarak and thus probably very much leaning toward his views? Second, my reading has left me with the impression Mubarak, this Vice President (Suliman is it?), and the rest of the leaders were generals in the military so that technically the military has been in control all along, and still is. It seems to me they are allowing the people to wear out their will and their money making useless protest which they've used to get rid of Mubarak, a man who'd obviously outlived his usefulness to them since they so readily let the people protest. He saw the writing on the wall that the military wasn't going to protect him anymore and fled. Now the military is making noises about oh we'll have an election...in a while. Yeah. Maybe six months. Or maybe never. I just don't understand how people are hailing this as Egypt has had a revolution and democracy is around the corner. It doesn't seem to me much has changed. Maybe the name of the guy in charge, but nothing of the real power behind the guy in charge. Am I missing something?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 20:51:19 GMT
You are missing the power of the people.
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