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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 17:25:06 GMT
Living in such a mixed neighbourhood, I can't help but notice all of the different ways the resident foreigners deal with the language of the new country, particularly when they are raising children.
Black Africans are the ones who speak French with the greatest determination, but I'm not sure if it is a trait of character or if it is simply easier for them to communicate with each other due to a multitude of tribal language variations. I tend to think that it is more a trait of character, because increasing their status is very important to them, and French is already the language of the elite in most of their countries. But I also hear quite a bit of English, because a lot of the people are from Ghana, Sierra Leone or the Gambia as well, not to mention the anglophone regions of Cameroon. They seem to switch to French as soon as they are able, because most for most of them, there is no looking back.
The North Africans are a different matter. I see most of the young men talking to each other in Berber, while the groups of young women have chosen French. Older women, though, are split on the subject, probably depending on whether they have lived in France for 5 years or 30 years.
The Asians cling to their languages -- Cantonese, Vietnamese, etc. -- and never speak French to each other, although they often speak perfect French to other groups.
The Indians and Sri Lankans ar quite a bit like the North Africans. The young men converse in their own language and the women have adopted French.
Actually, the French preference of the various women is quite easy to understand. The moment their children start going to school, they become 100% French and only speak in French. The mothers do their best to go along with this, except for the Asian mothers. I often see them speaking Vietnamese or whatever to their children, who answer them exclusively in French if they are of school age.
As for some of us other people who have changed from the countries of our birth, I am curious to know what you do. Do you speak your own language at home and/or with friends? Have you adopted the local language? What language do you read in or watch television in?
As a bi-national, I know that I am not representative. My first language was French, because I learned to talk in French, and then I completely rejected it and only spoke English starting at age 3. I learned French again at age 11, and of course when I moved to France, I merged more and more into French culture and language.
I knew a lot of ex-pats in the early years, and everybody would speak English no matter where they were from, and then I got really tired of them and eliminated them from my relations. Now, whether or not I am talking to resident Germans, Italians, Spaniards, British or Americans among my friends, we all speak French to each other because it is our language of choice.
I watch French television, read French books, go to French movies primarily, and that seems totally normal to me because I have chosen to live in France. But I also know that it is a somewhat fallacious attitude, since I do it because I speak French perfectly now, and it is not an effort for me.
Every now and then I imagine moving to Thailand, Vietnam, Brazil -- whatever -- and know that it would not at all be the same for me in those places. It is highly unlikely that I would prefer the Vietnamese language or Vietnamese culture, even if I love other things about Vietnam. Probably, it is already the case of quite a few of you living in 'complicated' countries.
But I would certainly love to hear your views on the subject, particularly what nationality your friends tend to be, whether or not you watch local TV and movies, and the language you use with your children...
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Post by mich64 on Apr 8, 2011 17:49:07 GMT
A very interesting topic and I am sure the answers are going to as well.
Being that I was born in France and love it there so much, I wish that I could speak better French. I can understand quite a bit, depending who is speaking and know the travel phrases. My eldest sister spoke French as she was looked after by our nanny but when we moved back to Canada she slowly lost her ability. Many of our friends speak French and will sometimes speak it to one another when we are in a group.
My husband spoke French and German until he was nine. At that time his family returned to Canada and his teachers asked his parents to speak English to him at home because he was having difficulty in school. They all now regret that they complied. My husbands older sister speaks French fluently and her first child did as well and his two children. Her other two children with her second husband speak English.
We now live in an area of Canada where speaking French is common. We have French and English school systems and they seem to be quite even in populations. We also have French immersion schools.
My mother-in-law still has the most beautiful accent.
When we travel my husband will use the French and German that he remembers. We bring our little dictionaries and seek out smaller towns/villages on some of our vacations to be immeresed in the language of what country we are visiting. He did so well in Austria they gave us their menus while giving the English menus later to the group of Americans that came in.
I will be interested in reading all the replies on this thread. Cheers, Mich
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Post by bjd on Apr 8, 2011 18:13:45 GMT
Yes, interesting thread.
My very first language was Polish because when my parents went to England after the war, only my father spoke English, my mother was young and learned by going to the cinema and reading easy books. My grandmother joined them after a few years but her English was minimal, although she also learned enough to get by. I started school at age 4, my sister was a year older and we learned English right away, so now I pretty well consider it my native language. I can still speak Polish, but only do so with my mother, or with Polish relatives in Canada. I have a native speaker's accent, but can't say anything too complicated vocabulary-wise.
I studied French starting in high school in Canada, then took it also at university, so could speak quite well when I came to France, although what was considered "good French" in Canada was not so good when I attended university classes in France, at least at first.
I met my French husband in Canada, so we spoke English together. When I came to France, we spoke French so that I would learn faster. After we married and had kids, we spoke only English at home. I figured that they would be in the French school system and hear French outside the house, so we had to insist on English at home. Fortunately, my husband speaks English very well, without a French accent, so it wasn't that much of a problem. So, my kids are bilingual, and in fact had little trouble learning other languages and picking up accents. We all speak several languages in fact.
I mostly hang out with French friends. I do have friends who are Dutch or German with whom I often speak English, and also speak English once a week with a group of women who are either English teachers or not French. The group was started by some English & American expats, but is now mostly French.
We still always speak English at home and when my kids were in high school, I was surprised that they still spoke together in English, even when they had other kids around. I had expected that they would try to assimilate, but I guess they found it more fun to be special. Of course, that has helped them tremendously academically and professionally.
Our daughter-in-law was also brought up in a bilingual household (French/Spanish) and we can all switch around languages when we want, since her English is very good too.
I read and watch movies in both French and English. I prefer to read in English. Occasionally someone asks what my "little accent" is, but it's not really strong. Nobody ever takes me for a North American -- I look like one of those people who could be from anywhere in Europe. Well, maybe not Scandinavia.
I have met foreigners who spoke to their kids in accented French rather than teaching them two languages and always thought this a real shame.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 8, 2011 18:38:53 GMT
"Complicated countries" k2 says. Hmmm. That could well be me then.
We did French at school, as you do, but not exactly seriously. Eventually I lived in Germany where I learnt enough to get by. The problem I had there was as soon as someone knew I was English they swapped languages - no matter how many times I told them that German was fine. It ended up often I would speak German and they would reply to me in English.
The next country was the Philippines. At no time was there any danger of me learning Tagalog, beside the fact that most spoke English as well anyway, plus there own 'tribal' language. After another spell in Germany where the same happened again I came to Egypt. Learn Arabic? Me? No. English is used far too much for it to be necessary, plus it is a completely 'alien' language to me - plus there is a difference between classic Arabic and Egyptian Arabic and Arabic in other countries. Then this year to Jordan - I'll make do with English thankyouverymuch.
However, we have a house/ruin in Spain. I will definitely learn Spanish and I would learn the language of any European country I lived in, but not in a 'complicated' country. My wife speaks German, English, Spanish, Slovenian and now pretty damn good Arabic, plus basic French and Croatian and can be understood and understand some of the Balkan languages, enough to travel at any rate.
Among friends here and in Germany they are mostly German, so German is spoken. Amongst Arabic friends it is English or German. I speak English to my kids and they to me, they speak German to my wife and at school and have friends who also speak German. My wife and I converse in English, or when we go out here and don't want to be understood we risk German.
The mother tongue of my kids is Spanish but, although the reasons are a little complicated, now stick to German and English. Their Spanish is all but forgotten unfortunately.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 8, 2011 18:44:05 GMT
bjd - "I have a native speaker's accent" - Apparently I speak German with an English accent which my wife says sounds 'cute' and makes her go all gooey kneed. This has also been said by other German females.
I don't think I'll try too hard to change that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 18:48:51 GMT
Just wondering, Mark -- since your wife is (I think) Slovenian, do the kids know any Slovenian basic vocabulary? (please, thank you, potatoes, I'm thirsty..)
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Post by onlymark on Apr 8, 2011 19:05:38 GMT
She was born there, yes. She speaks Slovenian/German to her mother, Slovenian to the relatives there, German/Arabic to her father and to his relatives - but our kids (and me) know only please, thank you, good morning, good night and bon appetit. We never spent any time in the country apart form an odd week here and there or a long weekend.
When we were looking round for a house to buy "to call our own" I suggested Slovenia as it is a beautiful country. She declined the idea as she understood whichever country it was to be then I'd have to learn the language to function there properly (and not be an expat all the while) and Slovenian, she says is too complicated for me or the kids once you get past a basic learning nouns stage.
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Post by bjd on Apr 9, 2011 6:41:00 GMT
No language is too complicated for kids to learn.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 9, 2011 8:30:30 GMT
None of us are kids any more though, or at least we wouldn't be by the time we were able to live there long enough to need it.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 25, 2013 20:16:58 GMT
I just finished reading this lovely essay and wanted to share it. This thread seems like a good spot. In the comments section you'll see how the writer's openhearted delight in his subject elicited kindness and enthusiasm from many different readers. How Learning a Foreign Language Reignited My Imagination, by Ta-Nehisi Coates in The Atlantic
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Post by htmb on May 25, 2013 21:36:19 GMT
Bixa, that is a wonderful essay which I enjoyed reading very much. I admire individuals who are fluent, even semi-fluent, in other languages. I know Kerouac's original question was put to those who move freely between different languages in their everyday lives, so I hope you will bear with me while I detail my recent attempt to learn French.
I wish I could communicate fluently in another language. Growing up in an area with many Spanish speaking people, particularly political refugees from Cuba, I learned a good bit of the language as a child and worked at it until the end of college. Thanks to my father, who was 1/4 Spanish, I could curse like a Spanish sailor. I even traveled to Spain with friends of my parents, and was able to partially communicate with their family in Galicia. But after that, there was no opportunity for practice. By the time my own children were studying Spanish in high school, I found what little command I had for the language had mostly faded away.
Years later, five years ago next month actually, I made a trip to France with a friend who would be participating in an art course. She didn't wish to travel alone and, since I had fairly recently ended a very long marriage, getting away was just what I needed at the time. I knew no French, and very little about Paris and the Languedoc where we would later travel. For someone who is very independent-minded, it was a completely sobering and uncomfortable experience to realize I was totally dependent upon my friend for communication. I vowed to never let myself be put in that position again.
Attempting to learn French has been much harder than I ever anticipated. I've never been good at memorizing details, and find it gets even more difficult as I get older. I have taken a few classes here and there, and also studied on my own. I even took classes for a period of time in Paris. I am now convinced that if I were ever to really be able to learn to speak French, or any other language, I would need to be totally immersed in the language for at least a year to get even a good start. I doubt that will ever happen.
So, as I prepare to travel to France again, I will make do with my phrase book and my translation app, as well as the kindness of those who know so much more English than I will ever know of French. In many ways, for me, walking the streets of France and hearing others talk is isolating in a good way. I feel almost invisible at times; left free to observe and to roam. But somewhere along the way, I seem to be picking up - and even remembering - some of the basics. It's enough to get by, for now. .
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Post by bixaorellana on May 26, 2013 4:22:14 GMT
Oh, Htmb ~~ your personal story and further comments really enhance the original essay for me! What you describe is more than likely the norm, too. It would be nice to think that if we applied ourselves and studied hard, we'd master another language, but it's hardly that easy.
I particularly identified with your experience of knowing and being able to use Spanish, then losing it over time, since that's what happened to me.
Someone like you, who truly enjoys and knows how to communicate in her own language, is surely more likely to eventually make the breakthrough into another one. In the meantime your comment, I feel almost invisible at times; left free to observe and to roam., captures the essence of the receptive traveler. I also find it heartening in the sense of encouragement to go to places where we don't know the language.
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Post by rikita on Jun 3, 2013 12:20:01 GMT
not quite exactly what you asked, but a bit related i suppose... :
well i grew up with just one language, learning my first foreign languages (english and french) in school and more later at university. i stayed for longer periods (usually about 4-6 months) in various countries though, starting with the US and Chile as a high school student, so there I learned or improved the languages outside of a classroom setting... for some reason i had also always been convinced that i'd end up with someone who isn't german and maybe even in a different country where i'd raise my kids bilingual.
well as it happens, i am married to a german and live in berlin and am planning to stay here for now... but the funny thing is that mr. r. and i often speak english to each other. it is kind of strange i suppose, but when we met each other, we just both felt more comfortable speaking english to each other (he had lived in the UK for ten years and i think was eager to finally speak english to someone again after returning to germany, and i had my former relationships all with non-germans and thus found it weird to speak about "those things" in german)...
so our plan then was to raise our kid bilingual, as mr. r. said he wanted to speak english to her. but when she was born it turned out that he automatically spoke german to her (and actually used a lot of expressions his mother used when he was a small child). so now we both speak german to her, but mainly english to each other. we'll see if she picks up any of it. i just hope we don't confuse her, but then, i think as long as we, or at least one of us, speak german to her she will learn german well, and might have at least a passive knowledge of english.
as for what i'd do in a "complicated" country - i am pretty sure i'd try to learn the language, though of course i can't guarantee success (after that half year in india and trying to learn malayalam i know that some languages are just really really hard to learn for me...) - and i am pretty sure i'd speak german to my kid, as i would still want her to speak my language, and as speaking german to her is what feels most natural...
but of course that is just guessing...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 12:35:37 GMT
One of the people who was hired to replace me at the office is an Italian woman married to a French man. At home, they speak exclusively in English to their son. She lived in London for a number of years, so her English is quite good but not perfect. I always wonder how good one should be at a language to try this sort of linguistic trick with one's children, because if you teach them the wrong vocabulary or pronunciation, sometimes it can be hard for them to break out of the mistake later.
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Post by bjd on Jun 3, 2013 13:41:43 GMT
Interesting -- we were just talking about this with our son who is working with a professor of socio-linguistics (ie how people actually speak rather than how they are supposed to speak.)
Anyway, from what he told us, when people speak to their kids in a language which is not their own, the kids have a harder time learning to speak that language correctly and fluently.
This seems borne out in at least one example I know personally. When we lived in Besançon, there was a Franco-American couple. Since the American wife didn't speak much French at first, the husband also spoke English to their daughter. For some reason, instead of picking up her mother's American accent, the kid (4 years old at the time) had the strongest French accent, although she spoke English fluently.
Our grandaughter is being raised bilingually -- her mother speaks Spanish to her and her father French. The parents speak French together, although depending on who is at the house, they also speak English. On skype, we speak English, but I realized that if I speak English to the baby, she just stares at me, but if I speak French, then she reacts and obviously understands. Since the day care is also in French (spoken by a Ukrainian wmoan!), the words she says are mostly French, not Spanish.
When I go to see her later this year, I plan to speak English though. Speaking French to small children is not "normal" for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 16:48:07 GMT
I saw that lots of bi-national parents have good results with each parent speaking to the child in their native language. It doesn't seem to bother the children at all, even if they think it is a bit weird.
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Post by fgrsk8r1970 on Jun 3, 2013 17:50:03 GMT
I like this thread, so interesting !!! My native and first language is German and I still speak it fluently as nobody in my immediate family (besides one niece) speaks english. I started to learn English at 11 and French at 13 in school and went to 2 week long school exchanges. Then, especially the one in Dijon, my French was "basic conversational" and after the two weeks I was able to tell jokes in French. My english was ok (British English) and started to improve slightly when some of my girlfriends dated Americans and I got to practice and learn American English. I traveled to the US for the first time when I was 19 and was smack-dab immersed as I had to re-book a flight in SF and was on the phone with Delta for an hour. I got more comfortable speaking English and started to travel more and more to the US with girlfriends. Most of the time I was the one speaking as my GF was too shy and so that improved my knowledge immensely. At the same time I started watching English TV on Sky at home (Full House... Fresh Prince of Bel Air.. let me tell you, Will Smith is NOT easy to understand when one just starts out LOL) and read books I'd purchase at the airport. It really helped with all the gazillion idioms we have here in the US. I moved here 17 years ago and now pretty much think, sleep, live, read, watch English. When my German GF visits (she lives in NorCal) we actually speak English as I am more comfortable talking about current things in English. I usually try to explain it to others as "they happened in English, so that's why I prefer to speak about it in English" if that makes any sense at all. As far as my dad, since he can't speak ANY other language I am able to flip the switch very easily back and forth . But English is now my preferred language. I even email with my niece and another German GF in English (they want to improve their skills) and it's easier for me. I have many spanish speaking friends but we all converse in English as my spanish is minimal (sadly). I also have a French-Canadian friend that I try to speak french to (the little that's left). People usually think I am from the UK or scandinavia, some don't hear an accent at all so I get the funny questions like: You are German? Were your parents in the military? When I say "no I was born and raised there-I am German" they say... "so do you speak German?" My usual response is now "Yes, that's a bad habit we Germans have, speaking German" So I take it as a compliment that I don't have the harsh German accent, but so far my German friends also haven't told me that I have an American Accent when I speak German. The only thing I do not know is when I speak French in Paris if they hear that I am German or American. Since I learned it as a German I assume the first. I don't have children so I can't comment on that, but I'd like to think that I would have tried to speak German while my husband would have been speaking English to them! I do plan to refresh my French for the upcoming trip to Paris this Christmas because I know it's still there somewhere.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 3, 2013 17:59:17 GMT
our plan then was to raise our kid bilingual, as mr. r. said he wanted to speak english to her. but when she was born it turned out that he automatically spoke german to her (and actually used a lot of expressions his mother used when he was a small child). When I go to see her later this year, I plan to speak English though. Speaking French to small children is not "normal" for me. When I first moved here, I had to make a conscious effort not to speak to little kids in English, even though I automatically spoke to adults in Spanish. I had a friend whose parents were deaf, so her first language was sign language. She always talked to her baby in English and sign language simultaneously. It would appear that whatever our own baby language was is the language that feels normal for communicating with a small child. I always wonder how good one should be at a language to try this sort of linguistic trick with one's children, because if you teach them the wrong vocabulary or pronunciation, sometimes it can be hard for them to break out of the mistake later. I'd think the more important part would be the fact that they grow up equipped with an extra language. After all, people routinely grow up learning poor grammar, or heavy regional accents &/or expressions in their native tongues, but at least they have that language, which can always be improved later.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 3, 2013 18:00:54 GMT
(Wasn't ignoring you, Skater -- guess we simul-posted)
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Post by bjd on Jun 3, 2013 18:27:13 GMT
It would appear that whatever our own baby language was is the language that feels normal for communicating with a small child
Not in my case, since my own "baby language" was Polish. But we always spoke English at home once our first child was born, so it became natural for all of us to speak only English. Even now, my husband who is French, is incapable of speaking anything but English to small children.
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Post by fumobici on Jun 3, 2013 21:08:43 GMT
I always wonder how good one should be at a language to try this sort of linguistic trick with one's children, because if you teach them the wrong vocabulary or pronunciation, sometimes it can be hard for them to break out of the mistake later. Is it then better to be academically taught a new language by a teacher who may not possess native fluency than not to have studied at all? I was lucky enough to have had French teachers who spoke French as their first language for all but one year, but like Bixa I wonder if even flawed instruction isn't still significantly better than none. I'm frankly a bit disappointed my father and his wife still speak English at home even though their Italian has become very good. I wouldn't mind being completely immersed while visiting there, I find it almost easier to stay in a second or third language than to switch back and forth between English and another as my brain is so trained in thinking in English I like to avoid even the temptation to do so for extended periods of time. Once one can get to the point where your interior monologues are mostly done in the language you are trying to learn, one can really take full advantage of immersion.
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Post by rikita on Jun 5, 2013 9:32:14 GMT
another thing though i have noticed, not necessarily with children but in general, is that often the first language you use with someone is the one that prevails during the "relationship" (could be friendship, being a couple, or whatever)... at least in my case and in the cases of friends - if they start out speaking a's language to each other, even if a later on learns b's language they stick with language a most times...
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Post by questa on Sept 6, 2013 14:26:10 GMT
I have only just read this thread and find it very interesting. Apart from school student French, I could only speak Australian English.
When I had a restaurant in Bali, I expected to learn Indonesian, but all the staff spoke Balinese among themselves.
Not only that, but Balinese has 3 concurrent forms (not dialects) If you (lower caste) met a person of the High caste (Bali is Hindu) you'd use High Balinese which has come down from the poetic language of Kawi. That person would speak to you in the middle or low caste language, depending on your caste.
Middle caste people had their own language, as did the lower caste, which they would use in accordance to whom they were talking.
Indonesian is taught in schools as a second language and all TV and education is in Indonesian. English, French, Japanese and German are commonly spoken by those under 35 or so.
Many of the older people only speak Balinese, but there is a trend now of parents only using Indonesian with their little kids because they are afraid the kids will use the wrong caste level language to a higher caste person and disgrace the family.
If 2 strangers meet, they start to talk in middle level Balinese. When they exchange names this will indicate their caste and they switch to the appropriate languages. All the names have a pre-fix indicating caste.
Needless to say, I learned Indonesian at colleges in Australia, Yogyakarta and living in a Lombok village!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 16:45:17 GMT
I came across these interesting statistics about which languages are 'exclusively' spoken in immigrant homes in France (the missing percentages obviously are the households where a mix of languages is spoken).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 20:45:49 GMT
I am in the middle of reading a lengthy article from the August 8 & 15th issue of the New Yorker. The author, Lauren Collins recounts her personal history of her struggle to learn French. The title of the piece is "Love in Translation".
It is both humorous and extremely informative as well as quite intimate.
I could relate on many levels my own struggle and frustration with my many attempts to learn French, not nearly as seriously as the author as it involves her being married to a man from Geneva. My attempts were from an academic level, 4 years in High School and 2 in undergraduate. I never mastered conversational French but can read and write French on a very basic level. I was highly amused at her comments regarding how maddening some aspects of the language posed for me and surely others. An excellent example ; Vert (green),verre (glass), ver (worm), vers (toward),and vair (squirrel fur) constitute a quintuple homophone,not even counting verts, verses, and very. Also, my favorite passage involves what a bitch gender is. Le poele: a stove. La poele: a frying pan. A man's shirt, une chemise, is feminine, but a woman's shirt, un chemisier, is masculine.
It's an interesting and extremely well written article and is chock full of well researched factoids regarding many languages.
One very fascinating passage of interest is a research study analyzing two hundred and thirty nine languages to create the "Language Weirdness Index", anointing Chalcatongo Mixtec- a verb -initial tonal language spoken by six thousand people in Oaxaca, Mexico- the world's oddest language. (The most conventional was Hindi).
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2016 5:27:48 GMT
Did they mention the clicking language used in Namibia (I think) among the "odd" languages? In any case, oddity is in the ear of the beholder.
I'm glad you revived this thread, Casi. I can update this by saying my grandchildren in Canada speak only Spanish to their mother, only French to their father and the oldest (4 1/2) occasionally asks to speak English and can sing some songs and nursery rhymes in English. We ended up speaking French to them simply because we were never there for any length of time and wanted to communicate. The parents still speak French between themselves. If our son (or I) ever says anything in Spanish, we are told to speak French by the kids.
They are about to leave for Scotland for a year, so that will be interesting!
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 3, 2016 6:59:52 GMT
They are about to leave for Scotland for a year, so that will be interesting! You could freak them out with these : My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2016 7:47:13 GMT
They are going to Edinburgh. They have actually been to Scotland before so my son can roll his r's pretty well but I had to explain yesterday that you don't say "Edinburg" but "Edinborro". And he will be at the university, so perhaps not everyone will be from Glasgow!
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Post by mossie on Sept 3, 2016 14:29:10 GMT
Scots regional accents vary enormously, but Gorbals Glasgow is one of the most impenetrable. I well remember taking on a very good worker from there, it took at least a month before I could understand him.
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 3, 2016 14:50:59 GMT
Edinburgh is of course a pretty cosmopolitan city and university, with a strong contingent of lawyers, finance people and such, often actually or might-as-well-be English, but some famously not. Here's a more serious example of the kind of accent you might come across (the page on the Youtube site has the script she's working from): My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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