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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 18:36:32 GMT
A lot of us now live quite far from where we grew up. And some of us have also moved as an adult from one place to another one far away.
What have you abandoned and what have you retained?
I have lost absolutely everything of the accent I had as a child in the American south (and I heard tapes of my voice back then with the southern twang). I have also abandoned all of the specific local vocabulary from back there, even if I still understand all of it perfectly well.
As a young adult, I moved to France (after going to university in California), and it pretty much erased all traces of where I had been. I suppose that many people would now say that I have a "mid Atlantic" accent, which is what they say about people who don't sound American and who don't sound English but whose native language appears to be English.
Most of my formulations are definitely American, but I easily modify them depending on to whom I am talking. In just a few days I speak nearly perfect 'English' if I am plunged into a group of English/Indian/Pakistani/Australian etc. speakers, as has often happened on business trips.
In other words, I always try to adapt instead of hanging on to my natural speech. I have come across lots of people who don't do this: "My version of the language is understandable, so that's good enough for me"
In a somewhat different vein, there is also the choice of vocabulary words. Some places might say 'sack' and others might say 'bag'. This is another aspect where I try to adapt as much as possible to the local locution.
I'm sure that some of you have noticed here that sometimes I spell in English and sometimes I spell in American -- a website like this is particularly difficult for me to decide what to do.
So what do you do? Here, in your new country or region, or depending on whom you are talking to?
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Post by thill25 on Apr 19, 2011 18:59:56 GMT
I've lived in the South most of my life (three years in Turkey), and have no real accent. My parents (both from south Alabama) do, but somehow (thank goodness) I've avoided it or lost it. I'm fairly positive that when I was a child I had a "southern dialect". According to this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_American_EnglishI still harbor a few tendencies (pen / pin a prime example).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 19:09:46 GMT
OMG, you don't write with an ink pin, I hope? Even when I was six years old I couldn't stand hearing that (with a French mother and a biological father raised in Illinois).
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Post by onlymark on Apr 19, 2011 19:30:22 GMT
My natural northern English accent is still very audible, though no where near as strong as it was. I think I, like most who leave an area they were brought up in, have two of the same language, and can slip from one to the other reasonably easily - the one they use when they go 'home' with local accent, slang and vocabulary, and the one they use elsewhere in a different country maybe, but still English or whatever.
When I visit my father and I'm out somewhere my accent reverts to being quite strong and I easily use the slang etc. But over the years away from there I've had to soften it and use a fairly neutral generic English that can, hopefully, be understood to non native speakers. I've not really 'lost' anything. I just don't use it.
I also don't really adapt it any further unless there are real problems with communication. I didn't use 'Americanisms' in the USA, I don't structure sentences differently in India with Indian English and I certainly didn't inflex the end of the sentence upwards to make it sound like a question in New Zealand. I may make slight alterations where words are ambiguous or I'm aware of a different meaning (e.g. fanny), but on the whole, what you see it was you get.
However, amongst native English, in the UK or abroad my accent is one of those that is prone to stereotyping me. Characteristics are assumed. Depending on the circumstances I will adjust vocabulary and strength to play up to or down from that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 20:26:03 GMT
I have noticed that it takes me about 3 days to drop into local speech patterns, keeping in mind that this often entails changing language. When I return to Paris from an overseas trip during which I have spoken mostly English (even if it was 'Thai English' or 'Dutch English'), people wonder what has gone wrong with me. As for the United States, I am now hopeless -- everybody knows that English is not my native language (except that, dammit, it is!). I am spotted as French instantly upon arrival, but then it wears off for me to become 'unidentifiable continental European with good vocabulary.'
While most people in France think that I am French, about 20% identify a foreign origin. In order of guesses, I am: Belgian, Swiss, Dutch, English, Swedish, American.
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Post by thill25 on Apr 19, 2011 21:50:38 GMT
OMG, you don't write with an ink pin, I hope? Even when I was six years old I couldn't stand hearing that (with a French mother and a biological father raised in Illinois). I pronounce them the same. It drives my wife crazy. I swear that I cannot say it any other way.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 20, 2011 2:55:12 GMT
Not only do I pronounce them the same, I cannot hear the difference.
We all ought to record ourselves & post the results here, but only after making a pact of no cheating. Didn't Mark post his recorded voice somewhere in this board?
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 5:23:16 GMT
I did, but I'm not telling you where.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 20, 2011 5:45:18 GMT
Well, I'm going to find it and then I'm going to tell EVERYBODY.
So there.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 6:55:52 GMT
You forgot the "na na na na na".
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Post by bjd on Apr 20, 2011 7:55:53 GMT
I get taken for Belgian or northern French too. Occasionally people will say, "I hear a slight accent, where are you from?" when I speak French. But I don't have a Toulouse accent for sure.
In Canada, I assume I just sound Canadian (ask Jazz), although the first days I probably sound a bit different. What I find is that my slang is completely out of date. Although, when I talk to my sister, for example, or people who watch a lot of US TV, they use expressions I find weird. When I talk with my friends from university, they sound more like I do.
I don't feel I have adapted my language to living in a different country. When I speak English with non-native speakers, I tend to slow down, but since I think I had a relatively ordinary accent, I didn't need to change it.
One of these days, I'll have to meet Kerouac in Paris and we'll see what we sound like -- two Belgians. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 10:22:02 GMT
I grew up on Long Island,N.Y,. BUT, far enough out on the Eastern tip to not have adopted/acquired the accent associated with most of the remainder of Long Island (where they say LONGUYLAND). All my life,whenever I tell people where I'm from,they always ask" oh,you're from Longuyland? "It never fails to rattle my cage. I never really sound(ed) like any typical New Yorker, although,when I'm there a couple of days,I can slip into it a teensy bit,enough that some will notice.
I have lived here in NOLA most of my adult life,and while I have adopted the Southern,Y'all, and many of the local colloquialisms,I don't think I sound truly Southern,aside from the fact that New Orleans dialect/accent is fairly distinct,not your typical Southern accent at all. In fact,many people I know from Mississippi and Alabama,I sometimes have difficulty understanding.
I have always said the word PEN,properly.
I don't think I've ever really had any accent,at times,one can hear a bit of New York,other times,New Orleans. I've been told that at some times, I sound like I'm from Chicago,somewhere I never lived or visited.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Apr 20, 2011 13:22:04 GMT
You all sound terribly exotic..... ;D
I was born in Leicester (pronounced 'Less-ter') and had a broad Leicestershire accent as a child. We moved to Bedfordshire when I was 11 years old where I was the object of ridicule (my classmates seemed to think that a midlands accent was proof that I was stupid). I don't remember losing the accent but I must have over the years. We moved back to Leicester in the 1980s and I think that my accent has crept back but is less broad...my OH is a southerner (often mistaken for a cockney) and has had the corners of his southern accent knocked off a bit.
I think that I adapt too...it's to do with putting the person you're talking to at ease (imo) by mirroring (to a certain extent) the way that they speak...copying would be creepy!. When we had a week with distant relatives in Scotland we were both saying 'Aye' instead of 'yes' by the end of our stay ;D When in the South my OH's accent re-emerges with some force...mine just softens a bit I think...
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 15:50:32 GMT
You all sound terribly exotic..... ;D Cheery, I'm sure after you listened to this you'll find exotic is not the word. I expect you'll be about the only one who can decipher this. And then probably not all of it. As a one off and never to be repeated I herefore introduce you to the full flow of my northern accent - speaking in dialect. And then it's not as strong as many. It's not a pretty sight. (Don't you just hate hearing your own voice) Anyone need a translation?
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Post by bjd on Apr 20, 2011 15:57:01 GMT
I caught about 20%, if that! Were you reading from some story about coal miners?
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 16:55:52 GMT
I was reading, yes, I had to really. I needed to put something down on paper because I couldn't remember what I was going to say. I tried to make something up off the cuff but it wasn't easy. So I made a little script.
I imagined returning to the street I was brought up and after a day or two seeing a ex-neighbour out shopping. A man. First is introduction questions, next is a mention of close relative and what they were doing and third is an invitation. It's just my side of the conversation.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 20, 2011 18:54:38 GMT
Whew!
I got "going down the pit" (I think), but only because I saw Bjd's comment before listening to the video.
Also understood "tha" from reading DH Lawrence, and "Mind you, she's always been a mardy britches. I think she dropped her [rest unintelligible to me]" "Any road, I'm famished. I'm going home to a [?] fridge and have [ fribble? - ? - ]. If you're by yourself [your san - ?], we can [-?-?-?] so you can get blogged up." [- ? -] "Go on. Hold tight. Great, we're off."
I had to really listen, and only started picking out bits after you said that it was your half of a conversation.
I hope this doesn't embarrass you, but you have a truly beautiful speaking voice.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 19:44:14 GMT
Why thank you young lady.
I'm holding out for the translation a little, but I'll try and write it phonetically to follow it better.
"Ayup m'duck. Ist tha rait? Haas tha gert? Ist tha youth still guhhin daan pit? I saw tha babi scrating and mawngin in't jennel yesterdi. Mind ya, she's alles bin a mardy britches. I think she'd dropped her tuffees cos the lass is keggy anded. Them clarty uns she had. Manky as owt tha wa but she still stuffed em in her fizzog und werried em. Anyroad, ahm famished. Ahm gooin om ta ay a firtle in fridge und ay a fuddle. If yabiyasen we cun gu croggy on coursey un get blobbed up. Tha dunt ah ta be frit. Gerron. Owd tite. Rait we're off.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 19:50:56 GMT
Clearer now? (!)
And I lived for a while less than a stones throw from DH Lawrence's house.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 20:26:09 GMT
Then you should read the Women in Love piece about the proper way to split a fig.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 20, 2011 21:09:06 GMT
Can't find that in dialect though on t'internet.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 21, 2011 6:41:20 GMT
I'm off to Spain in the morning for a bit over a week so I'll slip in a translation while I've got chance.
"Hello friend. Is everything ok? How is your wife? Is your brother still working in the mines? I saw your youngest child crying in the alleyway between the two houses yesterday. Mind you, she's always been a bit sulky and cries at the slightest thing. I think she dropped her sweets because she is left handed. The sticky ones, the ones that stick to the roof of your mouth. Dirty as anything they were but she still stuffed them into her mouth and ate them quickly. Anyway, I'm hungry. I'm going home to look in the fridge and have an indoor picnic. If you are by yourself I can give you a lift on my bike on the pavement and we can get fill up with food. You don't have to be frightened. Get on. Hold tight. Right, we're off."
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Post by bjd on Apr 21, 2011 6:53:24 GMT
Thanks for the translation. I think one of the reasons I disliked reading southern US literature like Faulkner and some of DH Lawrence is the dialect. Having to read it out loud to try to figure it out, and not always succeeding.
Buen viaje a Espa~na (my tilde doesn't work under Linux!).
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Post by onlymark on Apr 21, 2011 7:13:55 GMT
Ayup - hello M'duck - friend (often 'youth' can be substituted when addressing a male) Rait - right Gert - generally a wife or girlfriend Youth - any male, it depends on the circumstances. Can be brother or eldest child but not restricted to that. Pit - coal mine Babi - baby, small baby or youngest child not matter what the age. Scraitin/scratin - to cry Mawngin - being sad, tearful Jinnel/jennel - alleyway at intervals between terraced houses Mardy (britches) - sulky, not a robust person Tuffees - sweets Keggy handed - left handed Clarty - anything sticky usually refers to sweets that stick to the roof of your mouth like soft toffee Manky - dirty, in poor condition Owt - anything Fizzog - face/mouth Werried - eat quickly Firtle - sort through Fuddle - I had these regularly as a kid when the weather was bad. You'd lay out a picnic of all you could find in the cupboards/fridge in an open space, usually the living room floor on a blanket. Yabiyasen - you by yourself Croggy - give someone a lift on your bike. Usually by them sitting sideways on the crossbar. Coursey - pavement Blobbed up - full to bursting of food Dunt - doesn't Frit - frightened
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Post by onlymark on Apr 21, 2011 7:19:57 GMT
bjd, I struggle to read anything in dialect, even DH Lawrence stuff. I end up having to say it out loud to try and grasp it. It detracts from the enjoyment somewhat of the writings. My imagination is fertile enough to imagine the characters speaking in their dialect without having to have it written verbatum in front of me.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 21, 2011 7:28:46 GMT
Amazing -- it borders on being a separate language!
One of the reasons I enjoyed Confederacy of Dunces so much was that the writing captured the New Orleans style and delivery so perfectly, I could practically hear the characters speaking. Later I found out that people not from the region really struggled with the same thing I enjoyed so much.
Mark, how/where did you set your camera so it would record so clearly?
Oh ~~ have a lovely time in Spain. This trip out should be far less eventful than last time.
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Post by onlymark on Apr 21, 2011 8:02:56 GMT
Can dialect be a separate language? How far away from the base language does it have to be before it becomes one, if ever? I've obviously exaggerated somewhat and stuck in quite a few local words whereas in normal day to day conversation you wouldn't have the need to use as many in such a short space of time, but it's just to get the idea.
I stood the camera up on my desk in front of me, facing me where the small microphone is, covered the lens with a piece of A4 and set it going. That's all.
One thing I'm interested in and a general question, if you can bear with me, is following on from a comment I made earlier about impressions and stereotypes from accents - if I was a stranger that'd just been introduced to you and spoke with that type of accent (not in dialect though because I knew you wouldn't understand it, just the accent) - can you imagine what characteristics I would have? I obviously don't sound cut glass English and an intelligent Oxford graduate, nor do I sound (hopefully) effeminate - but on first meeting what idea would you have of a person who spoke like that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2011 11:38:56 GMT
Reading Trainspotting can be a challenge for some of us. Probably not BigIain, though.
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Post by bjd on Apr 21, 2011 12:12:00 GMT
but on first meeting what idea would you have of a person who spoke like that?
I would probably assume you didn't have much of an education.
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Post by mickthecactus on Apr 21, 2011 12:29:44 GMT
but on first meeting what idea would you have of a person who spoke like that?I would probably assume you didn't have much of an education. You'd probably be right........... ;D
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