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Post by bixaorellana on May 17, 2011 22:11:50 GMT
I don't understand why you think that's strange. re: US laws: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape -- interesting reading, & includes other countries. There is a link in that wikipedia article about the laws in NY. Here are the charges against DSK: "The official charges filed against him in a New York City court include: two counts of criminal sexual act in the first degree; one count of attempted rape; and one count each of sexual abuse in the first degree, unlawful imprisonment in the second degree, sexual abuse in the third degree and forcible touching." sources
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 6:37:07 GMT
Well for one thing, the HIV risk for oral sex is about 95% lower than for vaginal sex.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 18:12:44 GMT
Tonight's evening news had a very surprising (to me) piece of information about the differences in the judicial system.
In France, 90% of the people arrested are brought to trial. In the United States, only 10% go to trial due to the system of plea bargaining.
At the moment, a lot of us are thinking that he is going to get out of this when the woman drops the charges -- for the same reason that the Michael Jackson accusers dropped the charges. My current estimation is about $20 million, but DSK's wife can afford it.
That's fine with me as long as his political career is completely finished.
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Post by bjd on May 18, 2011 18:38:42 GMT
I hadn't thought of the woman being bought off. Maybe it'll happen like that.
In any case, his political career is finished. Didn't the Socialists set the retirement age at 60?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 18:54:46 GMT
Yes, isn't the judicial wonderful? The rich can get out of just about anything. Too bad about the non-rich. (I think they were saying that there are something like 2000-3000 similar cases in NYC every year, but nobody seems to get hot and bothered about it. And I kind of doubt that everybody is going to jail for 75 years.)
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Post by mich64 on May 18, 2011 22:34:29 GMT
I do not believe she can drop the charges, this is not a Civil case it is a Criminal case and because this was reported to the Police, the Prosecution has to convene a Grand Jury (which it has and the evidence should be presented to it on Friday) to determine if there is enough evidence to go to trial. If the Grand Jury says yes to trial then the accused can hope for a plea deal or take a chance of going to Trial and being convicted of the crime and be sentenced for the crimes he is found guilty of.
Yes, there can be a plea deal but this will have nothing to do with the alledged victim, it will be between the Procescutor, the Defense Lawyer and the accused and is only if the accused wants to accept a lesser charge that would give him less time incarcerated, but this means he has to plead Guilty to what the agree on.
The Prosecution can present the Defense with a plea deal to save the case going to Trial. There is no money involved in this for the alledged victim. If she chooses to then charge him in Civil Court at a later date, this is where she could sue him for mental/physical damages and that is when you hear deals are settled out of court. In other words, no trial for money agreed on for him to pay her for damages.
The first few times Michael Jackson was accused, the victims did not go to the Police they went straight to Civil Court to sue him for money. And yes, he did settle with these people so he did not have to endure a Civil trial. The last time he went on trial I cannot remember if he just got fed up with these civil claimants asking for money or if it was an actual criminal case. I think it was a criminal case, if I remember correctly, the victim thought if he could have him convicted in Criminal Court he might get a bigger reward in Civil Court, but it did not work, he was found Not Guilty.
So yes, there are many many plea deals done every day, but that does not mean that people do not go to jail, they just go for less time or in some cases probabation, depending on the seriousness of the crime. I know it is confusing.
I do not believe the Prosecution has any plans on dropping the charges and since last night they have put DSK on suicide watch, which means a jail guard goes to his cell every 20 minutes to check on him and his cell has been stipped of any items that he could hurt himself with. He is in a situation that he cannot pay his way out of because this is in Criminal Court and the only money they take is bail to let him out of jail until the trial starts. He has already been refused bail once, the Defense will try again on Friday, perhaps offering to turn in his Passport and offering that he wear an ankle monitor and that he remain in his daughter's residence until trial.
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Post by hwinpp on May 19, 2011 8:12:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 8:41:51 GMT
Yes, that all seems quite accurate. I am very happy to see Strauss-Kahn fall, because he is just one of many politicians and top businessmen -- not just French ones -- who think that absolutely no rules apply to them, and that on top of everything, they are totally irresistible, so any woman who says no really means yes. (The Kennedy brothers were among those who started the trend in politics.)
I do believe that the media are overdoing it, but if it as least serves the purpose of making the other top dogs hesitate in the future, that will be a positive result.
For people who have not dug deeper into exactly who is DSK, though, besides head of the IMF, it should be noted that he is was the most popular politician in France and an expected shoo-in to be elected president next year (all of the polls showed him with more than 60% of the vote against Sarkozy). Actually, quite a few socialists here are relieved that this has happened now, because probably a lot of the dirt would have come out during the real electoral campaign.
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Post by bjd on May 19, 2011 9:33:44 GMT
I heard some journalists on the radio today -- a discussion/debate between a woman and a man. He (on the left politically) thought the way DSK was being treated was terrible. She said that France, being a macho country, has a long history of letting powerful people get away with everything, that DSK was certainly not the only politician that women reporters/photographers don't want to be alone with, that the police never takes those complaints seriously, etc. She also mentioned that powerful people are protected not only for sexual misconduct, for example, the Congolese politician who killed two kids with his car and was let go.
Not to mention all the dictators & their families who were able to come live in France and enjoy their millions after losing power in their own countries.
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Post by onlymark on May 19, 2011 11:10:16 GMT
Any man who sexually assaults a woman should be taken out into the desert and shot.
I feel better now.
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Post by mich64 on May 19, 2011 15:08:45 GMT
After reading the article that hwinpp posted I realized how naive I truly am.
Perhaps his fatal error was this time the woman he chose was not a Socialist, a woman who was not aware of the class system, a woman who knows the difference between seduction, acceptace, and rape.
I do believe DSK wanted to have sex before departing the hotel for the airport and in his arrogance just grabbed the first person available and unfortunately for him this lady did not care who he was, she seen him for what he was, a horrible scary man who viciously attacked her and she did the right thing and had someone call the Police to arrest him.
Mich
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 17:09:05 GMT
The presidential election polls in France have already moved on to the new contenders. #1 in the polls now is now François Hollande, the former companion of Ségolène Royal, the Socialist Party candidate for the last election (she got 47%). They never married but had four children and broke up in the middle of that election since he had hooked up with a journalist. Some of you may recall that the winner, Nicolas Sarkozy, was dumped by his (2nd) wife shortly after the election and fobbed himself off on Carla Bruni a few months later at a dinner when he told her "I bet you won't dare call me if I give you my phone number."
As you can see, the French view of mores is not quite the same as in a lot of countries, which explains why so many people are still supporting DSK.
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Post by bjd on May 19, 2011 18:08:12 GMT
I'm sure that Sarkozy and his then wife had already split before the last election (she had been seen with another man whom she has since married) but stayed around until after the election just to make it look better.
Now that Carla Bruni is pregnant, it will make his poll numbers go up. Can you imagine -- a baby at the Elysée?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 18:58:57 GMT
The main television channels have both cancelled their regular programming this evening to cover the DSK bail hearings going on at the moment.
One interesting tidbit of American judicial antics that was mentioned was that in the state of New York, only one case in 200 actually goes to trial (compared to 10% in most of the country). This affair is extremely informative regarding the exercise of "justice."
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Post by mich64 on May 19, 2011 19:18:04 GMT
It has just been reported that DSK has been indicted by the Grand Jury to stand trial for the charges against him. The Judge is hearing arguments presently regarding if he will be released on bail until the trial is arranged. The Court has recently called a recess before giving a decision.
There is still the possibility that it will not go to trial if he is offered a plea deal and accepts it. The plea deals are a way of saving taxpayers money, a way to provide more time on the schedule for serious crimes where plea deals are not offered, a way for victims to not have to endure the process. Plea deals mean the accused pleads guilty and has to give an account in Court of what the crime was and how he/she committed it.
Mich
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Post by rikita on May 19, 2011 19:28:22 GMT
Some people appear to be easily traumatized. I'm sure that millions of women have been involved in non consensual fellatio and most of them have taken care of the problem with a toothbrush and toothpaste. sorry haven't read all of the rest of the discussion but imho this is a really insensitive comment, i can't just ignore it. different people react differently to things, of course, but i think most women (or men) will NOT be able to forget something like that after brushing their teeth - and someone who thinks they have the right to force someone to any type of sexual act is... well, i lack words for that...
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 19:53:38 GMT
I think it is horrible as well, but I stand by my statement, since I am a realist. What would be insensitive would be to sweep reality under the carpet. Women are victimized absolutely everywhere in the world -- primitive countries and extremely developed countries -- and to deny that the vast majority of women do not do anything about such situations would be completely dishonest.
I would even say that it may be more prevalent in developed countries, because in the other places, women do not mix with men, or they wear burqas, or they are accompanied in all circumstances.
As to solving the situation, I leave that up to the persons who want this to stop. There are all sorts of possibilities. You can develop the sex industry with professionals, or you can cut off sexual attributes of both sexes, or you can feed bromide to the entire population, or you can take everybody to church and teach them that sex is evil, you can put millions of people in prison for doing anything that the lowest common denominator will consider inappropriate, or you can even try to raise people to respect the opposite sex and never do anything nasty.
There will still be problems. And when that happens, should people be taught to just get over it, or should they be taught that this is the most horrible thing that could have happened to them and that they should remain traumatized for the rest of their life with psychiatric treatment?
More than once, I have been the victim of unwanted sexual attention, and I really want to know if it should have ruined my life and if I should file a case and send several people (of both sexes) to jail. (Believe me, some of these events were absolutely against the law and yet I just got away and preferred to go on with my life.)
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 20:06:49 GMT
So, DSK has been granted bail. Is he allowed to give interviews? I don't know.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 19, 2011 20:07:06 GMT
Many thanks to Mich for her clear and accurate explanation of how the justice system works and specifically how it applies to DSK. One interesting tidbit of American judicial antics that was mentioned was that in the state of New York, only one case in 200 actually goes to trial (compared to 10% in most of the country). This affair is extremely informative regarding the exercise of "justice." Hardly "antics". Obviously, I can't say for sure, but this may actually reflect well on the State of New York. Trials are expensive to mount and often it makes more sense for a case not to go to trial for any number of reasons. Re: the article HW posted -- really interesting. Do those of you in France find it generally accurate? That article mentions the child Mitterand had with someone to whom he was not married. I tend to agree with his attitude that it was none of the press's business. Also, a man who supports a child who is not legally his responsibility can hardly be lumped in with sexual predators of DSK's ilk.
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Post by mich64 on May 19, 2011 20:09:54 GMT
he did get bail. Mich
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 20:37:05 GMT
Many thanks to Mich for her clear and accurate explanation of how the justice system works and specifically how it applies to DSK. One interesting tidbit of American judicial antics that was mentioned was that in the state of New York, only one case in 200 actually goes to trial (compared to 10% in most of the country). This affair is extremely informative regarding the exercise of "justice." Hardly "antics". Obviously, I can't say for sure, but this may actually reflect well on the State of New York. Trials are expensive to mount and often it makes more sense for a case not to go to trial for any number of reasons. Re: the article HW posted -- really interesting. Do those of you in France find it generally accurate? That article mentions the child Mitterand had with someone to whom he was not married. I tend to agree with his attitude that it was none of the press's business. Also, a man who supports a child who is not legally his responsibility can hardly be lumped in with sexual predators of DSK's ilk. I already wrote that I found the article relatively accurate. One main controversy (after the fact) with Mitterrand was that his mistress and daughter were lodged in places paid for by the government. Frankly, this does not shock me -- if it is normal for the president's daughter to be cared for (no matter who her mother is), why not the mother as well? In any case, Mitterrand never lived in the presidential palace -- he continued to live at home on rue de Bièvre for 14 years. This must have saved taxpayers a lot of money, even considering the security service.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 19, 2011 21:30:00 GMT
Oh -- apologies for the ditzy parts of my post. I got a phone call when I was writing it & when I came back, forgot to check if there had been other posts in the meantime. As far as I knew, I was writing post #44. I'm only now seeing 44, 45, 46, 47, 49, & 50. Thanks for the update, Mich. Rikita, you are totally right about the abject wrongness of forcing another person -- into a sexual act or anything else. Kerouac, I think your attitude is misguided as how could laws be made for the different ways people might react to the same crime? And usually, it's law that come first and a higher state of consciousness/respect for others/etc. that lags behind. Even if you bounced back emotionally from whatever happened to you, not filing charges meant that you tacitly allowed the perpetrators to continue preying on other people. And rape is really more a crime of violence and humiliation than one of someone "having" to have sex, which they could surely get more easily in any number of other ways.
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Post by mich64 on May 19, 2011 22:02:13 GMT
I would imagine that DSK will not be able to give interviews as also the Prosecution will not be able to give an interview.
Now that he has been indicted there are laws that prevent each from doing so.
His bail is one million dollars in cash, five million dollars in bond, he must wear an ankle monitoring bracelet and have a guard at all times at the residences and he must be escorted by the guard to any appointments outside his daughter's house and when he has to be in Court. He is basically under house arrest until the end of the trial. He returns to jail tonight and should be released tomorrow. Mich
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Post by frenchmystiquetour on May 19, 2011 22:18:21 GMT
The Mrs. tells me that she read in two newspapers/magazines (Le Point and one other paper) that as DSK was being arrested and taken off the airplane the last words anyone heard him utter were "Nice ass!" (in reference to a stewardess he noticed).
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Post by lagatta on May 19, 2011 23:24:50 GMT
The Guardian reports the nice arse comment as well.
Especially for someone as wealthy and connected as DSK, sexual assault (if proven) has nothing to do with getting his nuts off. In a posh city centre hotel? He'd have to be utterly cretinous if he couldn't secure escort services.
Of course, none of this is proven yet, and that is important.
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Post by spaceneedle on May 20, 2011 4:34:28 GMT
Maybe I am misreading some of the posts in this thread, but there seems to be some confusion between sex and sexual assault.
Rape/sexual assault/battery are crimes that are motivated by a need for violence and power over others.
Comparing that to someone who likes a little fun on the side with a woman outside their marriage or likes fetishes or whatever, is not even in the same ballpark, let alone the same SPORT.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 4:51:42 GMT
And how did you happen to learn that then? One of my colleague's daughter is an executive at the... er.... Disneyland Hotel in the Paris suburbs.
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Post by hwinpp on May 20, 2011 6:44:47 GMT
If he's guilty I hope he gets the max. I have absolutely no pity for him.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 13:02:31 GMT
He's an asshole and deserves all that is coming to him. I bet he abuses women in other ways too - emotional and mental, perhaps physical too? They usually all go hand in hand with men like him.
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Post by mich64 on May 20, 2011 19:36:35 GMT
The Prosecution and Defense were called to court by the Judge on problems with the release of DSK. The Bond papers have been seen and have been signed by the Judge, however, there seems to be a problem with the Apartment that the wife has rented for them to stay in. All parties have gone into the Judges Chambers to discuss whatever the problem is.
DSK is still in custody at Riker's Island.
Mich
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