Burial grounds

[auntieannie]

A seasonal subject ;D

reading about a house for sale by a cemetery, it has reminded me of differences of how death matters are dealt with.

For example, in Switzerland, if you wish to be buried in the ground, the concession for the cemetery space only lasts 25 years. After which, if the space is required, the tombstone is removed and the ground prepared for another coffin.

Here in England, the above is totally unheard of and once a cemetery is full, another piece of land is used to create a cemetery.

What happens where you are?

[Deleted]

I went to read up on this in France and discovered that the law has provisions for the following concessions: 5 years, 15 years, 30 years, 50 years or perpetual. 100 year concessions were eliminated in 1959 for some reason.

Each town decides which concessions it wishes to apply. Almost no towns offer perpetual concessions, because it is "too problematic."

Until 2003, cemeteries inside Paris only proposed perpetual concessions, while cemeteries operated by the city of Paris in the suburbs offer all of the other possibilities. However, since 2003, cemeteries inside Paris also allow the other concessions "subject to availability." To complicate matters, two of the Paris cemeteries in the suburbs (Pantin and Thiais) also have 10-year grassy concessions.

Finally, Père Lachaise cemetery has a special deal subject to a lot of conditions: people can take over an abandoned historical tomb (chapel or tombstone) subject to renovation and under the supervision of the official architects.

So if you thought living was complicated, once you're dead it can be even more complicated in France!

[bixaorellana]

Great subject, Annie!

I know there are bureaucratic snarls involved in getting permission to be buried in Oaxaca, even if it's a family plot. I attended one funeral where a young man was standing at the foot of the grave opened to receive his uncle's body. He was holding a little sack (possible a Crown Royal bag) which contained what was left of his mother. She'd been occupying that grave & her remains were gathered when it was opened for her brother's funeral.

In New Orleans, the above ground tombs have a hollow back wall so that remains can be shoved back (after a designated period of time) to receive new family dead. A stone is affixed to the front of the tomb with names & dates of the departed. When that stone gets filled up, it's moved to the side of the tomb & a new one is placed on the front.

[mich64]

This is an interesting subject. I will have to ask some questions around here to be able to provide an accurate account. My first instinct is that there are no concession time limits in the area I live in. I would imagine that is due to our being a young Country with vast spaces for Cemeteries. More urban centers probably have different policies.

Kerouac, when we visited Pere Lachaise we were shown an area/lawn for ashes to be spread. Do you know if you have to have permission to do this and is there a cost to do that?

When in Hallstatt, Austria we were told that they were in the ground for no more than 25 years to make room for new burials. We visited the Charnel House at the back of the Cemetery and inside were leg and arm bones stacked under neath a counter that was on three sides of the building. On top of the counter were the skulls that had been painted with ivy or flowers and the name, birth and death dates of the person who had been removed from the ground.

I have to say that the most incredible Cemeteries we have seen are in Switzerland. The intricate wooden crosses were pretty amazing as were the flowers. We also are intrigued by the tributes that are placed on the granite slabs in France.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2012 23:11:37 GMT mich64 said:

Kerouac, when we visited Pere Lachaise we were shown an area/lawn for ashes to be spread. Do you know if you have to have permission to do this and is there a cost to do that?

I would imagine that having the ashes scattered is included in the fee of the crematorium. I was walking through that section a week ago and saw that the new ashes were in very precise thin lines, so they clearly have some sort of machine on wheels that distributes the ashes precisely (probably adapted from some agricultural device ). After a rainfall or two, the ashes obviously disappear into the lawn.

[frenchmystiquetour]

I had a friend who died here in Paris just after I moved here. He was cremated and I attended the ceremony where his ashes were spread at Père Lachaise. The ashes are in a large metal container that has a handle and they walk in a line and pull the handle which releases the ashes. They're not supposed to let you take away any of the ashes but there were some tragic circumstances surrounding the death and the attendants understood and allowed us to take some ashes.

[Deleted]

I'm thinking that in my grandparents' village, the tombs are automatically perpetual as long as they are not abandoned. We have two family tombs there -- one that was "full" in 1937 and the new one that started when my grandfather died in 1973. It was meant just to have my grandparents in it, but we had my father's urn added, and that's where I'll put my mother, too, if she doesn't outlive me.

[htmb]

It is my assumption that most grave sites here in the U.S. are perpetual, unless they are in some of the larger cities. I know that where my family members are buried in Tampa the grave sites are perpetual.

We actually have a family grave site on some property owned by my family. The graves are those of another family, not ours, and came with the property. The grave sites were sold to us when we purchased the rest of the land. The majority of the property is set aside for agricultural crops, but there is a fence around the graves and the descendants, I assume, mow the grass periodically.

The grave site is adjacent to a graded road, so if the county ever decides to widen and pave the road the graves will most likely be moved.

Today, All Saints Day, I attended a funeral service for a lovely lady, the mother of a friend, who would have turned 92 this month. She lived a great and vibrant life, and was a very courageous and spirited woman. A very fine example of how to live, and how to die.

[Deleted]

For some reason, France passed a law in 2008 to forbid people from keeping funeral urns at home. I absolutely cannot imagine how this was bothering anybody and what the purpose of such a law could possibly be. Apparently, Germany has a similar law.

Ah.... I just looked it up and now I understand!

[htmb]

Ah.... I just looked it up and now I understand!

The Catholic Church?

[Deleted]

Absolutely not -- all influence of the Catholic church was officially disposed of by the law of 1905.

This law -- which was voted unanimously -- is to eliminate the huge number of problems caused by broken families who were fighting over the ashes!

[mossie]

There do not appear to be any restrictions in England, I was able to collect my wife's ashes without question. I have scattered them on our daughters grave as my wife had requested several years ago.

[htmb]

We don't seem to have restrictions in the U.S. either. Urns have been brought to us at home by funeral directors to do with what we wish, though I know there are official rules about where you can and cannot inter/scatter ashes in regards to public spaces.

[Deleted]

I brought my father from Florida in a cardboard box and he sat on the shelf until I took him to the undertaker in Lorraine, who put him in an urn for interment. They didn't ask for any special papers, permits or anything but a cheque, which suited us just fine but which was probably not 100% legal.

[tod2]

On Sunday we took a drive to Margate (South Africa) to see what the fishermen had caught on the pier that straddles a crop of rocks. As it was cool and wet I stood on the sidewalk looking down on the happenings below.
A few minutes later an elderly woman came along and I passed a comment on the weather. She stopped and in a few seconds told me her husband had died two month ago to the day.
She was glancing around at the men there and caught sight of two guys in their 20's messing around on the rocks under the pier. "I want to ask those two men if they would help me throw my husbands ashes into the sea" - She promptly showed me a cylinder in her shopping bag. It was the size of a wine bottle without the long neck part. I was surprised how small the container was as I remembered the photo of Kerouacs mother's urn.
As they came towards us she went and told them of her plight. A big of discussion was held and we could tell from the swaying that they were slightly drunk.
It obviously did not put her off and soon the pair were headed back to the rocks, cylinder in hand.

As they stepped onto a steep large rock the one man slipped and not only landed on his back but slid sideways and eventually upside down landing in a pool of water. I thought he had knocked himself out as he lay there for some minutes.
Helping him up with the cylinder in one hand they moved closer to the crashing waves.
When next I looked the two were holding hands aloft and saying a prayer - a huge wave roared in and knocked the ashes and the men flying.
The old dame was thrilled that the spirit of her husband ( she said he liked a good laugh) had decided to trick them and cover them in ash, sea water & all.
They returned bleeding and soaked to the skin - a day I'm sure they won't soon forget!

[lagatta]

I don't know how the concessions work at the cemeteries on Mont-Royal - a very popular place to be buried. Some of the family plots seem to be perpetual - they add new dead to the old - but I don't know the time periods or regulations.

It is also a very popular place to scatter ashes. This may well be illegal, but I doubt that it is enforced.

After the mosque attack in Québec City, one problem was that there was no Muslim cemetery there, and there don't appear to be any "all faiths or none" ones either. It is strange how there could be such a hangover from the period when the Church ruled all. This tragic event elicited promises that there would be a Muslim burial plot in the city (or the surrounding area).

[htmb]

Tod, that is a fascinating story. I almost felt like I'd been there.

[bixaorellana]

Tod, what a story! It reminded me of the movie "Death at a Funeral". I'm surprised you didn't roll off the sidewalk laughing.

I can't imagine why anyone would care what anyone else decided to do with the ashes of their loved ones, unless it affected the health of others.

[htmb]

In the old cemetery at Cedar Key there is a garden where ashes may be scattered or buried after paying the requested fee of $5. A small plaque with the name of the deceased will then be attached to the surrounding wall. The ashes of one of my friends were recently scattered there.

So, once they have to make some decisions, if my family members want to put my ashes in a specific place, this is where I'd prefer. Otherwise, something like what Tod witnessed would be fine, too.

[Deleted]

Sounds like somebody had voodoo at work, tod!

[tod2]

I so regret not having photographed or even video'd the whole thing! At the time I am sure the old dame would have loved that. This is what happens when one is caught off-guard. I'm sure many of you have been through this indecisive process!

[htmb]

Though photos/video would have been nice, your written description of events was quite good!

[rikita]

here the time is limited, too - just googled, in berlin it is 20 years, though it can be renewed if you pay some money ... and you have to be buried at an official burial ground, you can't just scatter the ashes (there are some options for other types of burial, like burying the ashes at sea, but it still has to be done through an official undertaker).

[patricklondon]

One thing here (in England at least) is that not all major municipal cemeteries are universally maintained to be spick and span, but where there are older graves that aren't obviously tended by the families, areas may be allowed to go a bit wild for ecological reasons; and the major ones are also implicitly recognised as, in some sense, a variety of public park, albeit with their own atmosphere. The big nineteenth-century cemetery near me once advertised a Family Fun Day there.........(seriously).

One other footnote about the legalities that sometimes comes up here is that you can be buried or disposed of anywhere the landowner accepts. So you could bury a loved one in theyour own back garden if you wanted (though you have to bear in mind that prospective future purchasers would need to be told about it).


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