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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 6:59:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 12:38:36 GMT
one of the very first KFC places to open in France and still going strong You can finally spot the basilica at the end of the street. Something is being built in front to spoil photographs to enhance the holiday season -- I don't know what. There are some nice restaurants right across from the basilica.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 14:50:56 GMT
For technical reasons, there will be a 2 day pause in this report, but we still have a third of the tramway route left on the way to Asnières.
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ssander
member
Offline
At the Belleville Arts Open Doors in Paris in 2007
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Post by ssander on Dec 12, 2012 16:31:50 GMT
Nice pix...
One of the things I love about the basilica is that it is so airy and well-lit with natural light...one of the reasons I like it better than Notre Dame (though, obviously, ND has a lot of other things going for it).
SS
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Post by mossie on Dec 12, 2012 19:45:48 GMT
You have surpassed yourself K. Thanks so much for this thoroughly illuminating thread.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 13, 2012 3:59:27 GMT
Yes, I adore this.
The more central parts of St-Denis are certainly places I feel at home. Evidently there are much "scarier" housing estates, but I didn't get to them. But if you go there with someone from the place, you are fine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 18:20:36 GMT
Since I needed to do a bit more walking, I returned to Saint Denis by metro to pick up the tram line again. Yes, dawn is quite late at this time of year. It was just past 8 a.m. The people of Saint Denis are just as lazy as Parisians. They were all still in bed. The market was not even setting up. Peeking through the door, I saw that the Christmas decorations were going strong. Bakers are the only people working at this time of day, and a few rare cafés. Okay -- back to the tram at "Marché de Saint Denis." The Théâtre Gérard Philipe in Saint Denis is another one of the major theatres of France. One may say all sorts of things about the deficiencies of the communist run cities, but one area in which they are not deficient is culture. The TGP puts on major productions just like the theatre in nearby Bobigny, forcing fearful Parisians to risk their lives to see fantastic productions. I still have extremely vivid memories of some of the plays that I saw at the Théâtre Gérard Philipe, even more than 20 years ago. Anyway, apparently this is the year for its major renovation.
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Post by bjd on Dec 15, 2012 19:12:29 GMT
I do wish plaques like the one just above would name names: the police prefect was Maurice Papon, known and finally judged for other horrible actions during WW2. Got off with a slap on the wrist basically. But at least his name would be remembered.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 19:37:38 GMT
Frankly, I don't think his name makes much difference. People remember what they want to remember. If the acts can be remembered, that is already important if it helps to ensure that the same thing never happens again. Not to mention the fact that even though somebody was officially in charge and gave orders -- Maurice Papon -- the atrocities were carried out by hundreds of nameless policemen.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 15, 2012 22:17:58 GMT
As soon as I saw the plaque, I thought "Maurice Papon - the consummate anti-Semite" (murderer of Jews and Arabs alike).
Well, Hannah Arendt spoke of the banality of evil. I knew a fellow who was a torture victim in his home country, and the jailers transporting him from one hell-hole to another were the most "normal" of people, fretting about their children's health and marks at school...
The big St-Denis market is very nice.
Edited to add: The people of St-Denis are Dionysiens et Dionysiennes (I remembered that gentilé, like a lot of other useless terminology, but did google it to check).
Kerouac, I'm sure I've seen tramway crossroads in Amsterdam and Brussels. Don't remember whether or not I saw any in Strasbourg.
Once again, thanks for this splendid thread!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 6:10:15 GMT
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Post by mossie on Dec 16, 2012 8:22:19 GMT
So Kerouac, or FMT, when are you going to report on biking to London from Paris. I've heard of "grand projects", but that is way OTT. Watch out you don't get run down by a tram, or is this just a clever way of reducing the numbers of cyclists ;D
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Post by lagatta on Dec 16, 2012 9:47:33 GMT
Good Road!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 16:17:34 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Dec 16, 2012 23:23:38 GMT
I am deeply ashamed to admit that the name of my housing co-operative is "Les Goélands de la Petite-Patrie". It was named by the small son of a founding member. Les Rats would have had about as much appeal. Didn't know L'île St-Denis was an independent town. Thought it was a descriptor like La Plaine St-Denis. The town has a website, of course: www.lile-saint-denis.fr/fr/information/29461/une-ile-passe-riche (I'm reading the local history section).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 6:39:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 6:52:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 11:47:35 GMT
So, you have now seen the entire line without having to go there yourselves. Frankly, I am very glad to have examined the areas every step of the way, because Parisians (not to mention people from anywhere else) talk about what the suburbs are like in complete ignorance and with plenty of prejudice. Yet 80% of the people that you see in the streets of Paris, the offices, the restaurants, the shops, when you are in the city live in the suburbs and these places that you have seen in this report are what they call home, not the Champs Elysées or the Latin Quarter. One thing that I learned to respect over the years was how long a lot of them commute to come to Paris. One of my colleagues always drove me crazy because I would say "I usually get up at 6:30 which is an hour earlier than necessary to get to the office" and she would reply with "I have to be out my door by 6:00." She has to walk 20 minutes to the train station, then she has an hour on the train, and then another 20 minutes on the metro. And before doing all that she has to walk the dog. This is something to think about when people visit Paris and wonder why not all Parisians have a big grin on their face at all times.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 17, 2012 22:58:44 GMT
That is true. But this tramline will improve a lot of ordinary workers' lives - as long as it doesn't mean they are pushed out of the districts they live in.
I remember on a travel forum (not this one) people commenting about T1 and saying "well, it just goes slum to slum". Hand slap to head. There are tough areas in some of these suburbs, but along the line you've shown us there is absolutely nothing I'd call a "slum", except decrepit buildings slated for demolition, and personally I think they demolished many that could be saved and restored.
As for the new blocks of flats, they seem to vary greatly in aesthetic and "social" quality, meaning how liable they would be to create a community. Some are very nice indeed and just need some more trees and greenery to be pleasant. But there is a ghastly "barre" straight out of Le Corbusier.
The tramlines will greatly improve commutes BETWEEN suburbs, saving commuters precious time and limiting congestion in the city core.
I really hope trams are brought back here soon.
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Post by koloagirl on Dec 22, 2012 19:21:22 GMT
Aloha from Kaua'i! I must thank you because this report has educated me on so very many things! Being one of those people who tends to stay in Paris proper and not explore the outer suburbs (yet!) - this has given me a much better idea of what they are like. You certainly have shown that they are not all scary and ill-kept places! I had no idea about the tram system either - and I loved your explanation for the "gypsies" and "roma" definitions - it has always confused me because I know there are many different types of people that get lumped together by many of us as "gypsies". I find it fascinating the pristine trailer parks vs. the shantytowns - such a difficult existence for so many. I appreciate the time you've given to this project and can only tell you that I've learned much from it - and loved your photos as usual of course! ;D Malama Pono (take care) Janet
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2012 19:45:58 GMT
Fascinating. Like others, I'm also shocked to see how some gypsies live in those tent-made kind of shelters. And this in Paris? It's not something I would expect to see. And yet on the other side other 'travelers' live in those nice caravans...
I've heard it said that Irish travelers are not true gypsies, and that real gypsies will not have anything to do with them. Maybe the line is getting blurred as to what a true Roma is nowadays. When in India, as a kid, I remember seeing gypsies, the traveling people, in their traditional caravans, performing and they were the real deal. They have traveled far and have a very interesting history for sure...
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Post by htmb on Dec 22, 2012 19:51:02 GMT
You've certainly sparked some interesting comments on another forum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2012 19:52:06 GMT
Obviously, all of these groups are getting mixed (and thinned out) as the years go by. Romeo and Juliet are still going strong, no matter how much the elders of the various ethnic groups fight it. If 'poverty' is a culture in certain groups (and it certainly seems to be), I certainly will not regret the disappearance of this specific culture. However, it will require a bit more effort from government agencies, and that has been sorely lacking.
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Post by tod2 on Dec 23, 2012 5:22:04 GMT
This has been a super travelogue through the banlieus and shows a different side to the city. Interesting to see that this line joins Metro line 5 at Bobigny to line 7 at Corneuve. As I always use line 5 I had wondered what Bobigny looked like. As for the gypsies, I was referring to the Irish travelers, once called tinkers because they mended pots and pans, from the noise of their Rivetting. Very often referred to as "dids" short for didicoi, which is the Romany word for foreigner. Reading this wonderful photo essay for the umpteenth time and seeing new stuff I never noticed first time around, my understanding of the whole T1 set up is a bit clearer now. Mossie, you are a mine of information too! I love the tit bits about the gypsies.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 19:38:53 GMT
I thought it was fascinating on the evening news tonight that they had a really big report about the basilica of Saint Denis, pointing out how totally overlooked this incredible monument is -- only 200,000 visitors a year compared to 13 million for Notre Dame. Among the people interviewed were some Muslim women from Saint Denis wearing hijabs who thought that it was a shame that more people didn't come to see it.
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Post by bjd on Dec 25, 2012 19:57:42 GMT
I too went to Paris for years before I actually went to St Denis. It was certainly worth it, and a pleasure to visit without having to stand in line or shuffle behind hundreds of other people.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 26, 2012 0:12:31 GMT
You just take the normal métro up there - it was a few stops past where my friends lived, near La Fourche.
As for the Muslim ladies, I have a Moroccan friend who lived in Paris (he lives in the Netherlands now - he is fluent in several languages) and friends from his tiny Berber village removed their shoes as per the Muslim custom in holy places when visiting Notre Dame. I thought that was lovely.
There is also a worthwhile art and history museum near the Basilica. I'd definitely be happy in central St-Denis, as it isn't a long slog to see my friends in Paris proper, and as you have seen, it is "urban". Remember that there is an important university campus in that town - one of the first to promote adult education.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2013 16:51:53 GMT
Not necessarily wanting to beat my drum, but I came back to this report for another travel forum to glean a couple of pictures of the French gypsy camps versus the Roma camps, and I must admit that I did a very good job. This report gives a truly authentic view of all of the various areas that you can see in the northern suburbs.
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Post by woody77 on May 4, 2013 20:08:22 GMT
It's a very fascinating read.
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Post by Tim on Nov 16, 2013 8:48:42 GMT
I have never actually commented on anything I've read on the net but this, sir, was plentifully worthy of such exertion - given your rather epic voyage around the Parisian suburbs I'd feel rude not to.
This is just what I was looking for - I was in Paris last week but didn't manage Montmartre or any farther north through what may well be delusional paranoia.
Having returned home, I thought I'd check up on the situation and this post is brilliant for that purpose.
On behalf of all of those whom will have read this but didn't leave a reply, I thank you. Not to mention the rather staunch commendation for just getting out there and exploring - which I was being an utter fairy about - which I had meant to open this comment with, but sidetracked myself. Seemingly the story of my life recently... Thank you kindly and good night!
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