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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 22:55:40 GMT
This often comes up in travel forums about France, because saying 'bonjour' to anyone with whom you are interacting is considered to be essential. You say hello to the person before you say anything else ('Bonjour monsieur, bonjour madame'), and even if you have nothing else to say to them -- for example browsing in a small shop. In a bakery, you do not say 'une baguette, s'il vous plaît' but 'bonjour madame, une baguette s'il vous plaît'. You say hello to the bus driver, the taxi driver, a street vendor, a crêpe maker on the street, a policeman or anyone else to whom you ask directions. Beggars will often greet you, and even if you give them nothing, it is totally normal to greet them in return.
I have a mortifying memory of visiting Père Lachaise cemetery with a friend that I had not seen in 30 years. I was babbling to her and her daughter about all sorts of things, so many years having passed. And I forgot my manners. I walked up to the cemetery attendant (who was a young man) and said 'Can I have a map of the famous graves please?' He said 'Bonjour monsieur' and didn't move. So I repeated 'Can I have a map of the famous graves?' 'Bonjour monsieur.' And then it hit me like a supreme slap on the face. 'Excuse me. Bonjour monsieur. Can I have a map of the famous graves please?' And then he finally gave it to me, but I had already been too grievously impolite for him to smile.
I explained what had just happened to my friend, and it is something that she never forgot.
Actually, complete foreigners are not punished this way in most parts of France for not respecting this detail -- they know that foreigners have different mores. I was punished because I am not a foreigner and have no excuse for not being polite.
Actually, it is a part of French culture which I have learned to appreciate quite a bit, but obviously there is a grey zone where one is unsure what to do. For example, you do not need to greet the cashier in a supermarket or a ticket seller at the multiplex. But there is no way to know such things without years of experience, and you still get it wrong sometimes anyway.
And of course there are those encounters that are confusing in just about every country. Walking down the street, whom do you greet? Obviously, in a big city or even a medium sized city, you avoid eye contact with other people on the sidewalk and everybody becomes invisible. In a village it is a completely different matter. Normally you come across very few people, so you can't exactly ignore them, even if you have nothing to say to them. A brief 'hello' will be appreciated and returned, but sometimes you can read the person's face and decide whether to do it or not. For example, if the old lady is living exclusively for the dog on the leash in front of her, you don't need to disturb her in her love affair.
Another ambiguous encounter is on a long walk in the country or in a forest. Sometimes it seems totally normal to say 'hello' and sometimes the other person seems totally wrapped up in their own thoughts or appreciation of nature and it would seem almost rude to disturb them with a hello.
So, just wondering -- do you say hello to strangers, salespeople, random workers, etc.? What rules do you apply?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 0:51:53 GMT
I say hello and smile at everyone! Maybe it's just this area or maybe it's Canadians in general, but they are very outgoing and friendly. I remember when I first came over from England all those years ago and how it felt strange that complete strangers were smiling and saying 'Hi' to me, people I'd never met before and may never see again, but they they came across as so friendly. It surprised me and for a while I was taken aback, as the culture in the UK is not like that at all. In fact, at least in the area of the England that I lived in, you had to be careful not to make eye contact, let alone smile! It's funny when I go back to the UK for short visits now, I instantly revert back to that way again, just so not to stand out like some strange dufus, or give out the wrong impression But yeah, I am naturally a smiley/chatty kind of person and I like to see other people's faces light up when giving them just a smile and say hello
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Post by lagatta on Jan 18, 2013 1:13:18 GMT
This becomes even more complicated for women, especially young women. France is overall a very safe country, but harassment does exist, and it can be quite bothersome and even seem threatening.
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Post by fumobici on Jan 18, 2013 3:02:29 GMT
In Italy it is definitely considered impolite not to at least buon giorno or buona sera any time you interact with someone or even entering a shop. Politely asking how they are is of course nice as well. Once you are a familiar face, the "come sta"s often become "come stai"s which is warming. I like how most people say them with genuine interest--it doesn't come across as pro forma and obligatory at all. On the street it's more difficult calculus with all the familiar variables-- urban, rural, how busy it is, how preoccupied the other person(s) seem, eye contact etc. I've exported these pleasant inquiries back to the US. I find the grocery checkers and shopkeepers seem to appreciate the friendly interaction. There's really very little downside risk being politely pleasant with "strangers".
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Post by nautiker on Jan 18, 2013 7:05:18 GMT
that pic is hilarious, fumobici ;D
I always greet cashiers (incl goodbye), I would consider myself extremely rude if I didn't. there'll be a brief exchange of greetings with anyone I'm dealing with in any sort of business, e.g. conductors, bus drivers (not tram, though) etc. , might in cases just be a nod, though.
I admit that apart from that, I'm a reluctant greeter. having grown up in a larger city I usually never greeted on the street except for my neigbourhood, however currently I'm working in a smaller town and I've become accustomed to rather greet 'too often' - there are so many fresh faces I'm supposed to know, I cannot afford missing out somebody ;-)
I'll greet people who're doing things for me, too, even when they're likely unaware who I actually am, e.g. postmen, craftsmen in the staircase, dustmen - though in my neigbourhood only.
in the countryside, my rule is dependant on the track: off the beaten path = greetings, sometimes small chatter, major tracks = reserved.
on boards, usually only on first occasions and sometimes when I'm adressing someone specifically...
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Post by onlymark on Jan 18, 2013 8:31:27 GMT
It is said that the loneliest place in the UK is London, as I suppose with many large cities. The standard greeting in the village I lived in for many years was "Ayup m'duck/youth, ist tha reet?" and was given to everyone virtually no matter the interaction afterwards. Moving to a larger place the greeting became less, and yet larger often dispensed with altogether. Then later I moved to Arabic countries whereby half the time of any interaction seems to be taken up with greetings.
The man who washes my car, the doorman in the apartments opposite, the gas man or the electric man etc - here is just no way you can deal with the subject at hand without prolonged greetings and hand shaking. My local veg shop or even the big Carrefour supermarket can easily have long queues because of the time taken to 'get round to business'. I went to have my haircut yesterday, there were three people waiting, out of politeness I had to greet each one individually after the barber was greeted, one young man, out of respect to my older status, actually got up and shook my hand (we then all sat down, never said a word and watched the football on the TV. It was Barcelona with Messi though). Suffice to say that in Jordan greetings are more subdued than in Egypt.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 8:47:36 GMT
Actually, looking back at my OP where I said it is not necessary to greet supermarket cashiers, what I should have said is that you just say a quick 'bonjour' and not 'bonjour madame.' But I suspect that this would perhaps begin to fade away if it were not part of the cashier's job to say 'bonjour' to each new customer. But even in the big city, some of the customers can get into extended conversations at check-out since it is often neighbourhood people serving other neighbourhood people -- it would not be the same at the hypermarkets in the suburbs.
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Post by bjd on Jan 18, 2013 9:40:17 GMT
When I started reading this thread, I was indeed surprised that you mentioned not greeting supermarket cashiers! One always responds because part of their job is to greet each customer. It seems to me though that this was not case years ago. Do you remember, Kerouac? And where I live, people are more likely to chat to the cashier while they pack their groceries than in Paris, where the cashiers have to work much more quickly.
Maybe because I'm basically a foreigner, I tend to say "Bonjour" by itself in vague situations rather than following up with Monsieur or Madame. I still remember shortly after I moved permanently to France hearing a neighbour greet the postman, "Bonjour, Monsieur le facteur." I found that very strange and never heard anything similar again.
And there is the muttered "messyedam" that people say coming into stores.
Otherwise, indeed -- one greets everybody. For bus drivers, interestingly -- a few years ago, it was only on one line where there were never many people and usually the same ones. Now I notice people saying goodbye as they get off the bus even when there are lots of people on a busy line.
I have noticed too that there is an age difference in greeting. When I walk or run and there are other runners around, older ones will say hello, the young ones usually don't. Cyclists really rarely say anything. In general, being out for a walk, some people will say hello (not followed with Monsieur or Madame) and others won't. Old men with dogs tend to want to talk to anyone they meet. And people in small towns, like where we go in the southwest, all say hello -- from little kids to old people.
In a village in Mayenne though, where my in-laws had a house, people look suspiciously at outsiders and usually don't say anything. It must depend on the climate. Although they will answer if you talk first.
As far as big cities go, in our apartment building in Paris, everyone says hello, even if meeting people from a different staircase in the courtyard. I know nearly nobody there, but people are still friendly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 14:04:06 GMT
This becomes even more complicated for women, especially young women. France is overall a very safe country, but harassment does exist, and it can be quite bothersome and even seem threatening. It's weird how in one country or place a smile and hello is just a friendly greeting and in another place it can be thought to be a come on and have very negative results.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 14:08:57 GMT
however currently I'm working in a smaller town and I've become accustomed to rather greet 'too often' - there are so many fresh faces I'm supposed to know, I cannot afford missing out somebody ;-) I've actually been told off by people that I know who I have accidentally passed by when in the City, while they greeted me. (I admit I sometimes go around with my head in the clouds though ). Truth is I hardly ever take notice of people around me when in the City especially, I think I need to start paying more attention.
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 18, 2013 14:47:12 GMT
I have really bad eyes...so if someone says hi to me from more than 15-20 meters away, I don't know who they are, so I don't say anything back, except for a confused wave, unless I'm going towards them.
Before visiting Paris for the first time, I told my parents to say "Bonjour" and "Au revoir, merci" to every shop attendant, which worked well in most shops. It's not common in India, unless you make direct eye contact with the attendant.
I have followed that in Europe, but doesn't seem too common in parts of Asia.
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Post by mich64 on Jan 18, 2013 17:16:26 GMT
Where I live, when walking on the street and passing others it is common to smile, nod or say hello. Some people walk with their heads down, some people might be uncomfortable with eye contact but probably more so guarding from stumbling over something.
In stores it is quite common to follow up your hello greeting with "and how are you today?" and usually a discussion follows regarding the weather or the flu. Considering we probably frequent the same grocery store, pharmacy, post office and bank for years, we do not encounter many strangers and often know the people in these places by name.
When traveling, we do learn the customary greetings in the language of the country and use them.
I remember once in France touching something that was on display and being reprimanded in English by the shop keeper and on our departure him discussing our boorish behavior with the other staff, my mother-in-law turned and in flawless french wished them a wonderful day and a nice evening with their families. I now never touch anything on display, even at home where it is acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 18:23:17 GMT
ansh, do you not wear eye glasses to correct your vision?
Mich, I'm much like that too. It's a bit of shock to be told off for something that you did innocently and were not sure of the 'rules' that were in place. I had that happen to me once and after that I was very wary of touching anything again.
In stores, here in Canada, the shop assistants are all pretty much the same, they all smile and say hello and make you feel welcome. I guess some of it must be how they are trained. It's different in each county I reckon. Even when I shop in the US, I find it's a different approach. You just have to play it by ear.
I know when I lived in Montreal, kissing cheeks of complete stranger when saying goodbye in places like hairdressers was the norm. Not sure if it's still the same nowadays....
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Post by lagatta on Jan 19, 2013 0:25:19 GMT
Yes. We also say "merci" to bus drivers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 6:26:28 GMT
In France, it depends. Municipal buses generally have exit doors in the middle, far from the driver. However, on coaches where you disembark through the same door where you entered it is common to say "au revoir" or "merci."
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 19, 2013 8:56:04 GMT
Deyana, I do, but despite it.
I got scolded by a shopkeeper in a night market in Hong Kong for touching the items. And yeah, I don't touch things here, where the acceptance of it depends from shop to shop.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 19, 2013 16:15:38 GMT
Kerouac, the reason it is not mandatory to disembark from the centre of the bus here is the sometimes heavy or slippery snow or ice in the winter, though it is suggested to use the middle exit. People say bonjour upon boarding buses.
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Post by mossie on Jan 19, 2013 20:24:22 GMT
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 20, 2013 4:06:26 GMT
During my German exchange trip, I got scolded by the school bus driver, whose greeting I didn't understand, so I used German greetings I did know: "Guten Tag".
I asked my exchange partner what she said, so things became better from the next day.
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 26, 2013 10:39:16 GMT
Just remembered another incident, this in Paris.
I went to the cafe in Tour Montparnasse. Of course, I knew to say "Bonjour" etc but somehow forgot it this time. I just said "A bottle of water, please" (in English).
The woman got pissed, "You must say "Good day"". So I did. I then handed a folded up 5 euro note- she says again "No, open the note and give it".
Lesson learnt.
btw, is there really some custom/norm about the note being folded/open?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2013 10:59:00 GMT
No, you had just pissed her off.
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 26, 2013 11:02:17 GMT
oh, ok thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2013 11:40:20 GMT
Naturally, it is more polite to present banknotes unfolded since they will have to be unfolded by somebody anyway.
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Post by anshjain97 on Jan 26, 2013 12:05:16 GMT
Of course, I don't disagree, but had I been the shopkeeper, I wouldn't have really cared...
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Post by rikita on Jan 26, 2013 18:27:11 GMT
living in a bit city, i don't usually greet people unless i know them. problem is people i see regularly but don't know, or people i see out of context (let's say a shopkeeper from a place i sometimes shop, when i meet them on the street) and can't place right away. then i don't know whether to greet or not.
also, downstairs in my house there is a pub so i pass that everytime i get home. in summer, my landlord, one of the repair guys for our house and other people always sit outside. so i started greeting them of course, and now feel i have to "greet by association" also the other people that sit with them, even if they themselves aren't there... but again, sometimes i am not sure then who to greet and who not...
as for shops, i'd usually say "hallo" or "tach" or if i am feeling polite "guten tag" when entering a smaller one... when buying something, whether in a supermarket or a shop, i do usually wish the person a nice day...
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Post by mossie on Jan 27, 2013 8:23:36 GMT
I remember once in Paris, going into a crowded patisserie when an elderly woman came in and just mumbled "bonjour, tout le monde"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 12:17:20 GMT
Better than nothing!
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 28, 2013 16:24:12 GMT
I don't know that I'd feel mortified because of some stranger scolding me because of failing to greet them in the way he/she wished to be greeted, since the scolding seems quite rude. I do greet strangers as a matter of course. That's partly because of coming from the American south, where passing people on the sidewalk calls for at least a friendly nod. One of the great literary comments on cultural differences within a country is by Walker Percy in The Last Gentleman. His nice southern boy protagonist, Will Barret, attends a northern college & his sense of proper greeting decorum is knocked sideways: “He took to eyeing people on the path to see when they would speak. He judged the distance badly and said his “hi” and “what say” too soon….Spotting oncomers, fifty, sixty, seventy feet away, he began grinning and composing himself for the encounter. “Hi!” he hollered, Oh Lord, a good twenty feet too soon.” sourceIt is polite to greet shopkeepers here, although there is no general greeting of strangers. It does seem that the rather mannered politeness of people in stores is completely lacking in the younger workers, though.
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