Syrian crisis

[Deleted]

Since it seems quite clear now that missiles will soon be fired and cause unknown conséquences in the region, it is also interesting to note that the geopolitical mix is rearranging itself once again.

This article from the New York Times is an indication that the United States probably needs to pay more attention to European politics if it has trouble understanding why its allies do what they do.

[mossie]

An interesting article.

I have made the point elsewhere that the Syrian business is basically a civil war. England decapitated its King in the 17th century and had a bitter civil war, France did likewise in the 18th and had their Revolution and several related uprisings in the 19th. America had its own civil war, just as bitter, Russia had its Revolution and subsequent liquidation of a large number of its own people. China ditto. Nobody rushed in to take sides.
I draw the corollary with the fight between husband and wife, if a third party joins in they are both liable to gang up on them. Russia I am sure learnt a bitter lesson in Afghanistan, we had done so in the 19th century and again in this. I was highly critical of our intervention in Afghanistan, we seem to have learned absolutely nothing from history.

All the countries I mention above have survived to be stronger and more civilised than they were before. We are hated throughout a large part of the world for our previous imperialism and any action on our part is seen as a continuation of that.

Let them get on with it and sort themselves out, they will do a better job without us sticking our big noses in.

[fumobici]

Aug 31, 2013 18:34:50 GMT mossie said:

An interesting article.

I have made the point elsewhere that the Syrian business is basically a civil war. England decapitated its King in the 17th century and had a bitter civil war, France did likewise in the 18th and had their Revolution and several related uprisings in the 19th. America had its own civil war, just as bitter, Russia had its Revolution and subsequent liquidation of a large number of its own people. China ditto. Nobody rushed in to take sides.
I draw the corollary with the fight between husband and wife, if a third party joins in they are both liable to gang up on them. Russia I am sure learnt a bitter lesson in Afghanistan, we had done so in the 19th century and again in this. I was highly critical of our intervention in Afghanistan, we seem to have learned absolutely nothing from history.

All the countries I mention above have survived to be stronger and more civilised than they were before. We are hated throughout a large part of the world for our previous imperialism and any action on our part is seen as a continuation of that.

Let them get on with it and sort themselves out, they will do a better job without us sticking our big noses in.

Amen. This is sage counsel, sadly, probably given in vain.

[Deleted]

I find it extremely hypocritical that one absolutely never reads articles anymore about the huge benefits reaped by the weapons companies in situations like this. They win every single war, no matter how ridiculous or unjustified.

[bjd]

I saw two different news programs yesterday evening about Syria. On France24, right after Obama's speech, the FR24 journalist based in Washington said, "It's not going to happen right away. Obama wants to consult with Congress, who is away until September 9, then there will be a debate, so it's obvious that it's all going to take time."

I then looked at Telesur (Venezuela's station I can get through the internet). Rabid Chavez supporters. Anyway, their correspondent in Syria sounded as though missiles were about to fall on Damascus as he spoke. On and on about Hezbollah, Lebanon, etc -- spreading to a regional war.

It does sound as though Obama really doesn't want to go and shoot missiles into Syria, but is being pushed in by Israel and its supporters, as well as various other lobbies. Cameron has a good excuse not to go in.

Meanwhile, in France, Hollande felt so good about himself going in to save Mali, that he is all gung-ho about bombing Syria. He is trying to get over his nickname of Flanby or Pépère.

I agree with Mossie and Fumobici. It's a civil war with a power-hungry family on one side and on the other, a bunch of divided opponents mixed with various jihadis who were looking for a new country to interfere in. Not to mention the Saudis (those liberal people looking to spread democracy in the Middle East) and Iranians supporting their camps.

As Syrian civilians interviewed on the street in Damascus said, they are the ones who are going to suffer when bombs fall.

[mossie]

Yes, it is the ordinary man in the street, who generally could not care less about the "big issues", who will suffer. As with most wars, it is religion and greed which are the root causes, and neither are ever likely to go away.

[questa]

This has been doing the rounds here. It purports to be a letter to "The Times" in UK.

"Iran is backing Assad. Gulf states are against Assad!

Assad is against Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood and Obama are against General Sisi.

But Gulf states are pro Sisi! Which means they are against Muslim Brotherhood!

Iran is pro Hamas, but Hamas is backing Muslim Brotherhood!

Obama is backing Muslim Brotherhood, yet Hamas is against the US!

Gulf states are pro US. But Turkey is with Gulf states against Assad; yet Turkey is pro Muslim

Brotherhood against General Sisi. And General Sisi is being backed by the Gulf states!

Welcome to the Middle East and have a nice day."

[Deleted]

The site If We Were Syrian allows people from the G7 countries to see in what shape their country would be if the Syrian crisis were transposed to their home.

For example, for Canada, every one of the 160,000 people in Sudbury would be dead. The entire populations of Vancouver, Montréal and Toronto (+ Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, etc.) would have abandoned their homes -- that's 9.3 million people. 2.8 million people would have fled the country.

The rest of the world would have given 27% of the assistance requested.

[Deleted]

Daech lost 14% of the territory it controlled in 2015. The Syrian Kurds increased their territory by 186%. Bashar Al-Assad's government lost 16% of the territory it controlled.

This seems like it will never end, doesn't it?

[bjd]

Eventually everything ends in one way or another. The proxy wars in Syria continue until Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the gulf states, USA, France and everyone else concerned turns to something else. Have you noticed that the UN starting getting serious about trying to make a peace plan in the past couple of weeks when the refugee/migrant crisis has become overwhelming and is sparking a backlash all over Europe, even in countries that were previously welcoming like Germany and Sweden.

That said, the sooner Daesh loses power and territory, the better.

[kerouac2]

The Syrian civil war has almost reached its 10th anniversary. How time flies when most people don't give a shit!

[lugg]

Someone I know has just returned from Syria yesterday so I am looking forward to hearing how things are now, because as you say K2 little is mentioned now on the news.

[kerouac2]

400,000 dead including 120,000 civilians, just a blip in our lifestyle. Basically the government has won, with a little help from its friends (Russia, Iran).

[bjd]

Half the population has been displaced. Thousands of children haven't been to school in years, millions of Syrians living in refugee camps, with no idea whether and when they will be able to go home again. I have seen lots of news items about Syria these days, since it has been 10 years since the original uprising and demonstrations.

[tod2]

Kerouac, you tell us the war has nearly reached it's 10th Anniversary. Forgive me for bringing up the question of children here. The news shows us extremely malnourished little babies hanging on to life by a thread and SUFFERING terribly. How on earth do the women still continue to have children when they are only bringing them into the world to suffer. I will admit some might be cases of rape and forced sex, but not all. Surely the humanitarian aid agencies should be offering the women something to help them out of continually bringing these infants into the world. They can see there is no hope in the short term and as for older kids with no schooling - well there is a lost generation for sure.

[bjd]

Tod, I think the extremely malnourished babies you are seeing are in Yemen. There has been a war there for about 6 years -- the Saudis and their allies bombing with the weapons bought from Western countries, fighting with "rebels" supported by Iran. More proxy wars in which the people suffer, especially the women and children. Aid agencies have not been able to do much there to even bring in food or medical supplies.

And not to sound too nasty, it looks as though birth control is not high on the list of priorities in Muslim countries when you look at their birth rates.

[fumobici]

I know I'm probably an outlier but I celebrate and wish for the end of armed hostilities in Syria. I expect the West won't tolerate prolonged peace there however and will continue inciting further violence.

[kerouac2]

The West only cares about countries that can provide it with oil. Syria is not one of them.

(Obviously, I am only talking about the people in charge of the countries, not us unimportant basic citizens.)

[tod2]

Mar 18, 2021 14:31:47 GMT bjd said:

And not to sound too nasty, it looks as though birth control is not high on the list of priorities in Muslim countries when you look at their birth rates.

Thats not nasty bjd. Thats a fact. However you wish it wasn't true, it is common knowledge that among certain races their mindset is to re-produce and re-produce. Even intelligent small nations try to have as many children as possible. Countries that have been caught in conflict here in Northern Africa have no way to limit their families. They are otherwise indoctrinated or just too tired to fight off the process of impregnation.
My late neice ended up with years of psychiatric sessions after coming back from Rwanda. She was given a spade for her first job and told. "Go bury those kids over there".

African dictators are ruthless. African Presidents are no better. The man in the street is a nobody.

[kerouac2]

The only social network that poor countries have is their children. If you can't count on your government to help you, you have to count on your children.

[bjd]

Mar 18, 2021 14:46:27 GMT fumobici said:

I know I'm probably an outlier but I celebrate and wish for the end of armed hostilities in Syria. I expect the West won't tolerate prolonged peace there however and will continue inciting further violence.

Why would you be an outlier? Do you think everyone else wants the conflict to continue?

And do you include Iran, Russia and Turkey in "the West"?

[fumobici]

No. I just think that the Syrian conflict and all the inevitable humanitarian misery that entails have been fueled by countries arming, funding, and supporting armed rebellion within Syria in direct violation of Syria's national sovereignty. The US still has troops stationed within Syria (adjacent to a natural gas field, tellingly) against the explicit wishes of the Syrian government. I don't think it's any more OK for the West to invade countries, occupy their land, control their resources and attempt to overthrow their governments than it would be for those countries to do the same to us were they able to.

[lagatta]

In my neigbourhood,there are many remittance brokers where recent immigrants send a considerable part of their modest earnings to relatives back home...