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Post by questa on May 24, 2014 9:57:41 GMT
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Post by questa on May 24, 2014 10:29:48 GMT
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Post by questa on May 24, 2014 10:56:25 GMT
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Post by questa on May 24, 2014 13:55:52 GMT
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Post by bjd on May 24, 2014 15:17:57 GMT
How many hours did the drab and boring last?
I had expected to see a bit more human influence (villages or farms or something), given the high Chinese population. Where there any border formalities or is it just assumed that Tibet is part of China?
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Post by questa on May 25, 2014 0:34:28 GMT
hello bjd, I was on the train for 26 hours, but I joined at Xining which is the start of ascending the plateau. It is a longer trip if you start from Beijing or other eastern cities.
The typical image of crowded China applies in the east, western provinces like Tibet, Xinjiang with its Turkic Uighur people and Inner Mongolia are mainly nomadic tribes and the population sparse for the area. As these regions are rich in mining resources, the government is securing them by translocating thousands of eastern Han Chinese to these parts to dilute the ethnic mix. This makes for a tense situation that is currently apparent in Xinjiang.
Apart from a normal visa, I had to obtain from my agent in China a permit to enter Tibet, just covering Lhasa. To go out of Lhasa to see Everest base camp etc, another permit was needed. This was also arranged by the agent. These were checked before getting on the train and once we were out of Lhasa many frequent police/army checks. Our guide said she had not known so many checks, but I think the bombings in the next province had them on full alert.
Politically, Tibet is part of China. It is an Autonomous Region which suffered greatly during the Cultural Revolution. There is a lot of reparation and restoration going on, as well as infrastructure building that the Tibetans could (would?)never be able to do alone.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 4:31:49 GMT
I'm very impressed at how pristine the train looks, even though it doesn't seem to be particularly comfortable (built for smaller people than me?). And the Lhasa train station is a surprise as well, since I had a mental image of "the little train station on the plateau" sort of dusty and run down. Sometimes we are so ignorant! Me especially!
All of the landscape with no trees and practically no vegetation is a bit dismal, but it actually reminds me of a train trip I once took in Europe fro Paris to Lisbon. I'm sure that it must have been a bit more green than in your photos (but maybe not), but I got the exactly the same impression when the train went through the central plains of Spain.
I am really looking forward to the rest of the report!
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Post by questa on May 25, 2014 5:02:50 GMT
This map shows the 3 main areas for visitors. Top left is the Potala Palace, a huge edifice of over 1000 rooms, where the Dalai Lamas lived. Below that is the former summer palace which had soil and gardens. On the right is marked the centre of Tibetan belief, the Johkang. There is a temple in the centre with 2 pilgrim circuits around it. Here Tibetans progress in a clockwise direction, most walking, spinning their prayer wheels, and some prostrating each 3rd step. Tibet and specially Lhasa is incredibly dusty, Many people wear masks to counter dust and warm and moisten their breath. The air is very cold and dry, in no time my mouth and throat were painfully stuck. Matching the map but beautifully embroidered is a picture of the Potala.
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Post by questa on May 25, 2014 8:19:02 GMT
The 'little train station' handles 6-8 major trains plus huge amount of cargo each day. I read they are moving to putting in 6 lines and continuing to Nepal and India. Now THAT would be a journey...Beijing to Delhi...over the top of the world!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 14:28:23 GMT
Warning deyana...you don't just walk into Mordor; you don't just "hop over to Tibet" haha... yeah I know, questa. I was just dreaming. A separate trip would be the answer. And much easier. One day I will have the time to do all that.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 16:51:03 GMT
If they can finally make it easy to go between Tibet and Nepal & India, that would be spectacular! Probably pressurised trains would be a good idea due to the altitude, but since all of the high speed trains in various parts of the world are pressurised, that shouldn't be hard to do, even if the new train line is not high speed.
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Post by questa on May 25, 2014 23:19:57 GMT
The train is not pressurised as such, it has air-con and oxygen outlets if needed, but no-one on our trip needed them. Here are some stats for those who like these things.
The line includes the Tanggula Pass, which, at 5,072 m (16,640 feet) above sea level, is the world's highest railway.
Tanggula railway station at 5,068 m (16,627 feet)is the world's highest railway station. 1,338 m (4,390 ft)
Fenghuoshan tunnel is the highest rail tunnel in the world at 4,905 m (16,093 ft) above sea level. The 4,010 m (13,160 ft)
New Guanjiao Tunnel is the longest tunnel and culminating point (3,700 m)[4] between Xining and Golmud and 3,345 m (10,974 ft)
Yangbajing tunnel is the longest tunnel between Golmud and Lhasa.
More than 960 km (600 mi), over 80% of the Golmud-Lhasa section, is at an elevation of more than 4,000 m (13,123 ft).
There are 675 bridges, totalling 159.88 km (99.34 mi), and about 550 km (340 mi) is laid on permafrost.
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 0:33:35 GMT
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 0:56:34 GMT
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 1:37:39 GMT
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Post by bjd on May 26, 2014 6:39:04 GMT
I am not remotely religious, but I do get rather upset when I see religious buildings and artifacts used as tourist attractions. Seeing the picture of those two little (Chinese?) girls running to turn the prayer wheels, I wonder how a devout Tibetan would feel about it.
I just looked up Lhasa's altitude (3,650 m) -- I didn't expect it to be so green.
In the photo of the man selling some kind of herbs -- what were those? Were they used for incense?
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 9:49:46 GMT
Those railroad statistic boggle my mind. Even though I have flown over the Himalaya a number of times and I could tell that they are huge, it is hard for me to imagine a train station at 5068 metres when the highest mountain in Europe is only 4810 metres and most of us think that is already pretty high.
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 10:29:54 GMT
If you want to boggle some more, read the whole Wikipedia section. The train is not pressurized because it is designed to acclimatise the passengers to the higher altitudes gradually. Otherwise the passengers would step out of a pressurized carriage and immediately start having AMS symptoms. Our group of 11 had no altitude illnesses at all, although I feel the low O2 added to my lack of concentration and organisation.
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 10:58:57 GMT
BJD the man is the leader of the 'incense providing team'. He and the women had just unloaded this collection of branches and leaves from a barrow and were setting it off to burn. I don't know what plants were involved but it had a woody, part cedar smell.
The girls are Tibetan, the Chinese don't go near the temples. There is a rather casual sporting side in the way the younger people spin wheels, stuff cheap paper money inside the statues, and call out to each other in the temples. Coming from the 'no talking and behave yourself in churches' culture, I still find it challenging with most Asian sacred places when the kids run riot and everyone accepts it. Possibly the devout Tibetan would be relieved that these kids were holding to their faith and not being lured away with Chinese attractions.
Tourists are needed by temples and churches all over the world for their upkeep, so long as it is managed well, I have no trouble with this. However, I don't take photos of people at worship or the holy statues etc. inside the temples. You will see that the pilgrims I photo are all from behind them, not 'in your face'.
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Post by mossie on May 26, 2014 13:52:01 GMT
Some wonderful photos. The mountain air looks so clean and clear.
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Post by bjd on May 26, 2014 14:28:32 GMT
Thanks for the explanations, questa. I wasn't aware of the Asian relation to sacred places. (I have seen tourists who looked Middle Eastern standing by the altar in Notre Dame in Paris and taking photos of each other.)
I would be in favour of French churches charging people to get in when there are no services to help pay for upkeep. I have seen this in many places, but it's not done here.
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Post by questa on May 26, 2014 14:54:49 GMT
BJD...Does the Government there contribute to the upkeep of the beautiful cathedrals and historic palaces etc. in France. I know that even with our lesser grand buildings there is often a charge or donations requested. Buddhist and Hindu places are (when no services are going on)treated like a community hall with groups of women sitting and chatting, schoolkids doing homework, men gathering to have a cigarette and toddlers playing. In a Bangkok temple I was surprised to see a monk smoking while he listened to the horse races on a small radio, newspaper opened to the form guide. I guess that is what binds a community together and weaves the religion through their daily lives.
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Post by fumobici on May 26, 2014 15:25:22 GMT
So alien and exotic to these Western eyes and of course so beautiful. More please.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 16:59:11 GMT
BJD...Does the Government there contribute to the upkeep of the beautiful cathedrals and historic palaces etc. in France. I can answer that. All of the religious buildings in France built before 1905 (when the law for separation of church and state was voted) are French government property and the state is completely responsible for the upkeep. Even though nearly all such places have been placed at the disposal of religious groups (nearly always the Catholic church, obviously), the government does what it wants with them -- for example organising concerts and art expos as appropriate for various cultural events. It is interesting to note in Paris that Notre Dame, being 900 years old, is obviously a government building where people can take all of the photographs they want. The second most famous church, Sacré Coeur, was completed after 1905 and the church authorities have forbidden photography inside. In any case, there is absolutely no charge to enter any functioning religious edifice in France, whether it belongs to the government or anybody else. Places like the Sainte Chapelle, which is deconsecrated, charge a fee.
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Post by questa on May 27, 2014 1:07:31 GMT
Keep this map handy...in case you get as lost as I did...twice
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 14:25:35 GMT
So vast and just perfect if you are on a spiritual journey of some sort. The train looks so clean and comfortable, well as comfortable as a long distance train can get I guess. I wouldn't enjoy the 28 hour ride though!
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Post by questa on May 28, 2014 0:30:17 GMT
Hi, deyana, the train was great. My only criticism was that the dining car had no English menu or speakers and I had to go from table to table inspecting meals until I could point to one that looked like what I wanted, confirm with a "cluck-cluck" or a "moo" what the meat was and order that way. Moo with arms indicating big horns was understood to mean yak meat.
I met several local and international travellers and had a good time on board.
The attendant had a name that could mean 'the sun' so I called her 'Sunshine' for the trip and she was so happy about it. I slept a fair bit as I had just finished 30 hours in flight...soft mattress and clean linen and duvet.
A few years ago I went from Urumqi in the far west to Shanghai by train...3 1/2 days in a 4 berth cabin with 3 Chinese teachers...I learnt to speak 'mime' pretty quickly.
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Post by questa on May 28, 2014 1:52:15 GMT
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Post by questa on May 28, 2014 1:59:52 GMT
I'll add this, some may find it interesting as it is the heart of the current situation.
The Jokhang temple was first constructed by King Songtsän Gampo probably in 642 The famous Buddhist Master Atisha taught here in the 11th century and it has been considered the most important temple in Lhasa ever since
This temple has remained a key centre of Buddhist pilgrimage for centuries. It was sacked several times by the Mongols, but the building survived. In the past several centuries the temple complex was expanded and now covers an area of about 25,000 sq. meters
In July 1966, the monastery was sacked and desecrated by Red Guards during the so-called Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. Thousands of Buddhist scriptures were looted and burned.
Two inscribed pillars flank the north and south entrances to the temple. The pillar on the south side was erected by the Chinese in 1793 during a smallpox epidemic and records advice on hygiene measures to prevent smallpox.[ On the north side another far older pillar sits
It records the Sino-Tibetan treaty of 822 concluded by King Ralpacan and includes the following inscription:
"Tibet and China shall abide by the frontiers of which they are now in occupation. All to the east is the country of Great China; and all to the west is, without question, the country of Great Tibet. Henceforth on neither side shall there be waging of war nor seizing of territory. If any person incurs suspicion he shall be arrested; his business shall be inquired into and he shall be escorted back.”
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Post by bjd on May 28, 2014 7:46:48 GMT
I'm surprised the Red Guards didn't get rid of that second pillar.
It's funny to see the old Tibetan women in their sort of traditional clothes (with what look like aprons) and all wearing sneakers. I wonder what kind of shoes would have been traditional.
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