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Post by questa on Jul 18, 2014 5:02:38 GMT
The story is unfolding as I write so I won't go into details. The plane was flying from Netherlands to Kuala Lumpur and was shot down over Russian rebels held part of Ukraine. No survivors and death toll 298, 27 from Australia. My thoughts go out to families and friends of those killed, and also to Malaysian Airlines who have just lost 17 of their colleagues and friends so soon after the disappearance of MH370
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Post by htmb on Jul 18, 2014 13:00:20 GMT
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Post by mossie on Jul 18, 2014 14:40:39 GMT
Desperately sad. This should never have happened and the airline bear a heavy responsibility, along with Vlad the Impossible. They were warned to keep clear of the area on Monday and most airlines were carrying the slight cost of extra fuel to divert around, rather than flog straight across. Putin must also step forward and punish those responsible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 15:25:26 GMT
I spent a lot of the 80's and 90's on planes that were scrupulously avoiding Iran and Iraq. I heard on the radio today that before this incident, the only "no fly" zone in the world was Crimea. Revisions are in progress.
My airline was involved in one of the worst disasters in history in 1980, and I can absolutely attest that it creates a lasting trauma with all of the flight crews as well as plenty of other people in the company. My boss at the time was a good friend of the pilot, and he was devastated.
As for Malaysia Airlines, I read that it was expected to go bankrupt before the end of 2015, but now it looks like that will happen more rapidly.
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Post by questa on Jul 20, 2014 3:01:33 GMT
As more victims are identified, the Australian death count has risen to 36.
Some spokes people say they will be counted as war deaths and the perpetrators judged as war criminals. Others call it murder and should be judged in a civilian court (?in Ukraine, Malaysia or Netherlands )
What do you all think
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 3:44:23 GMT
I think it will depend on whether it is assimiliated with the Korean Air and Iran Air events or whether the "amateur" status of the criminals makes it completely different.
The main problem is that the only "consolation" for cases like this is money. If neither Ukraine nor Russia is officially responsible, I can only imagine Malaysia being left holding the bag, which would be disgraceful.
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Post by bjd on Jul 20, 2014 6:12:01 GMT
From what I have been seeing and hearing on the news, the pro-Russian separatists have been acting in a most despicable way -- refusing access to the inspectors, removing money and valuables from the bodies, etc.
Several of the many "informed" commentators I heard the other day claimed that the shooting down was certainly a mistake, made by incompetent rebels who have obtained anti-aircraft missiles from Russia, or have captured them from the Ukrainian army. Since this is not a declared war, I would doubt that the dead would be counted as war deaths. There have been precedents for civilian aircraft being shot down, but I don't know what actually happened to the perpetrators or whether any reparations were ever paid. What happened with the Korean and Iranian situations?
I agree that Malaysia shouldn't be left holding the bag, but don't see any solution for the time being.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 7:50:37 GMT
As I recall the USSR and the United States eventually paid up but I may be mistaken.
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Post by bjd on Jul 20, 2014 9:11:07 GMT
I just found this: amazing what is on Wikipedia.
The United States did not apologize to Iran.[7] In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[8] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.
The US got off lightly when you compare with the demands made in class action suits on behalf of Americans from cigarette companies, for example. Reading further, the captain got a medal for his tour of duty and the shooting down of the plane was not mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 12:01:59 GMT
I read in La Libre Belgique today that the new Malaysian Airlines route to avoid Ukraine now overflys Syria.
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Post by waterhazardjack on Jul 22, 2014 23:23:34 GMT
The US got off lightly when you compare with the demands made in class action suits on behalf of Americans from cigarette companies, for example. Reading further, the captain got a medal for his tour of duty and the shooting down of the plane was not mentioned. Maybe they got off light in one sense, but the passengers of the Lockerbie airline disaster certainly didn't...the suspicion remains that this incident was carried out as retribution for the downing of the Iranian jet...particularly upsetting for Tehran was the promotion of the US officer you refer to... |
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Post by bjd on Jul 23, 2014 8:01:23 GMT
I would have been upset too.
Meanwhile, are you in Ukraine, Jack? I remember your mentioning holiday plans for there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 11:05:19 GMT
Regarding Lockerbie, it was Libya that was responsible for the bombing. Libya promised to pay $10 million for each victim but in the end only paid $8 million per victim, which is better than most people get anyway.
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Post by waterhazardjack on Aug 1, 2014 2:46:28 GMT
Meanwhile, are you in Ukraine, Jack? I remember your mentioning holiday plans for there. Not presently, bjd. Still grounded and time is slipping away. Hoping to have another crack at getting away before August is over, but it's not straightforward for me, at the moment... |
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Post by waterhazardjack on Aug 1, 2014 2:53:39 GMT
Regarding Lockerbie, it was Libya that was responsible for the bombing. Libya promised to pay $10 million for each victim but in the end only paid $8 million per victim, which is better than most people get anyway. Questionable whether they were or not, Kerouac. Some of the British relatives of the victims don't think so. Libya did pay 'blood money' but both sides (Blair and Qaddafi) were looking for some kind of deal at the time to resume normal dealings between their 2 countries. I'm certainly no 'truther' but am impressed by the work that Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter died in the disaster, has done on the incident... |
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