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Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 7, 2014 7:39:03 GMT
An emotive subject one way or another here in the UK. Personally I will be sad if the Scottish people vote to leave the United Kingdom but of course I defend their right to do so. We are being bombarded with information about the YES and NO votes in the UK media. Alex Salmond (the leader of the Scottish National Party) is probably being demonized by the British press as we only ever seem to receive negative information about him. Most English folk I've talked to about him don't like the man so the media campaign is working in England anyway. I don't think that the English public have become particularly engaged with the Scottish Independence Vote, we are used to sh*t happening. It's just another affirmation that we are a dwindling economic power with no real identity and useless, self serving politicians. Maybe we need a revolution....we deffo need to topple the ridiculously powerful class system that produces so many of our leaders. As an English person I'm used to being seen as the (moaning) bad guy, we have inherited the sins of our fathers along with the good. However I do feel a bit like a jilted lover. I have always loved the Scots and been proud of the British Isles. We open our doors to people from all over the world, I actually work with people from India, Pakistan, Africa, Poland, Somalia, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Lybia, Iran, Iraq, USA, Germany and probably other places too..they have all come to England to work and make a life for themselves and their families. A lot of these people refer to themselves as having dual nationality 'British Indian' or 'British African' etc. Many of my colleagues are economic migrants planning to return to their homeland at some point but the majority plan to stay in England. Today The Times says that the Yes vote has a narrow majority. What do the rest of you think ?
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 7, 2014 7:49:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 8:04:22 GMT
I have been following the subject for years, but it will never be possible for me to have the same understanding as someone from the UK.
However, if Scotland becomes independent, I don't think it will be as dramatic as a lot of people are making it out to be. In relatively recent times, we have seen a number of countries split up (Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Ethiopia, Sudan) and others come back together (Vietnam, Germany, Yemen). If you think of all of the changes in world maps over the centuries, it seems like it's a very normal and common thing.
Obviously, when it is happening to one's own country, people feel more passionately about it, whether they are for or against the idea. Since I moved to France, there have been major independence movements in Brittany, the Basque region and Corsica. Some people have always thought "out of the question!" while others thought "good riddance!" It has not happened yet, but I would not rule it out at some time in the future, all the more so if Scotland gains independence and Belgium finally splits up.
All of the technical things about Scottish independence are beyond me (currency, defence, division of resources...), but it seems that most of the other countries that split up worked things out, although sometimes it took a number of years and some bloodshed (Sarajevo...). I would not expect any bloodshed with Scotland, so that at least is one good thing.
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Post by fumobici on Sept 7, 2014 18:26:40 GMT
I'm hoping the Scots make the break, being tied to a larger state like England that is seemingly on a path to ever increasing wealth inequalities and even whose putatively liberal party is actually profoundly right wing and keen to dismantle and privatize the welfare state seems to me a ticket to a hellish and dystopian future. One thing troubling about the Yes campaign is how little thought they seem to have devoted to a future currency. If they opt to use the GBP, they will never really be independent of the UK, and if they opt for the Euro, they will just be another euro appendage of Germany. They will need a proper Scottish Pound to be independent.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 17:25:58 GMT
I read Gordon Brown's op-ed in yesterday's NY Times. Being out of the loop on much of the matter, it was no surprise that much of it went over my head. The gist of it being Mr. Brown's opinion that the four countries of the UK share values and a democracy that represents them. There was also an awful lot of chatter about the impact of global change and how Scotland has been transformed from one of the workshops of the world (shipyards in particular), into a service economy, with a major concern that should be considered toward a search for new skills. Henceforth, in Mr. Brown's opinion, Scotland's real quarrel should be with globalization, rather than England.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 18:29:51 GMT
As a Canadian who has had her share of separatist votes in the past (Québec, anyone?) I have to say I'm ambivalent. I don't know enough about the Scottish economy to comment on that side of things. But I think that England will be the poorer for the loss if it happens. Scotland is integral to English history, and the royals have a lot of Scottish lineage. And I agree with casi and M. Brown.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 9, 2014 1:42:33 GMT
Whatever you think, a great video for the Yes campaign:
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Post by mossie on Sept 9, 2014 18:10:23 GMT
I am very unsure about this, but suppose it marks the end of UK. Great Britain is long gone, Maggie sold off the Great and Blair devolved Britain into its constituent parts. Guess this is one of the final nails in the coffin.
On the other hand it will be a good thing for us provided our useless politicians conduct the separation negotiations sensibly. English people already feel a sense of grievance in that more public money pro rata is spent on the Scots, via the Barnett formula. Their children get free university education whereas ours have to pay £9000 a year, old age health care is free in Scotland but can cost an arm and a leg here. Now our politicians are panicking and could be offering them more sweeties to stay.
Perhaps if they go our taxes can be reduced, some hope I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 19:05:09 GMT
That really is a good video, lagatta, but of course that's because it addresses the exaltation of the creation of a new nation without mentioning any of the possible inevitable problems.
Obviously, if Scotland takes control of its oil industry, that will pay a lot of bills, but the oil reserves are not all that huge and are not going to last forever. And if England pulls out its naval installations (or gets kicked out, but I kind of doubt that), it would also be a huge blow to the Scottish economy. There are really a lot of unknowns...
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Post by lagatta on Sept 9, 2014 23:10:34 GMT
Well, that sort of video is always insanely positive - or negative - as the case might be. Though this one seems to be a bit too heartfelt to dismiss it as simply propaganda.
Of course, there are other problems in the event of a defeat; there was a huge morosity here in cultural terms after the referendum losses (the first quite broad, the second extremely narrow).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 5:06:28 GMT
I see they brought out quite a few Braveheart posters.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 17, 2014 17:45:35 GMT
gu.com/p/4xfd4I am totally unqualified to pronounce on this issue, but I thinkk this is an excellent essay by Billy Bragg.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 4:42:44 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 18, 2014 5:43:45 GMT
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Post by htmb on Sept 18, 2014 11:00:29 GMT
Both very interesting links, to be sure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 13:46:38 GMT
Will this mean a new separate thread on here for Scotland?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 14:17:05 GMT
Wait and see!
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Post by lola on Sept 18, 2014 14:58:49 GMT
I'm with Her Majesty on this one. And with Stephen Colbert, who wonders why William Wallace didn't just call for a vote instead of letting himself be drawn and quartered. Interesting that they're letting 16 and 17 year olds vote on this. Glad I don't have to vote, because I don't know which would be best.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 3:29:04 GMT
Oh, I've been on edge today and it's been partly this. I'm 1/4 Scots. I marvel at how this is being decided by referendum, when a couple of hundred years ago it would have been decided by the sword. I think it's swinging to No, but I gues I'll know more when I get up in the morning. Whatever happens, England is going to have to change its tune.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 19, 2014 4:27:39 GMT
I think it would be utterly cool if the vote goes to yes.
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Post by questa on Sept 19, 2014 4:31:12 GMT
BBC has just given it to the NO camp
Back to the swords!
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 19, 2014 4:31:50 GMT
Really?! Awwww. How close was it?
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Post by questa on Sept 19, 2014 4:38:09 GMT
Only heard that as our national radio broke into some music to give the news
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Post by lugg on Sept 19, 2014 7:37:25 GMT
55% No 45% Yes A very high turnout - 87% So now we in the UK will all ( including England ) get unprecedented constitutional change and more individual powers - won't we ? anyway I for one am pleased that majority voted No I think it is great that 16/17 year olds were allowed to vote , we need to create more political interest amongst young people, (of course I would say that wouldn't I ) PS Does everyone hate us ?
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Post by fumobici on Sept 19, 2014 15:27:02 GMT
I think in the end really unforgivable and quite deliberate uncertainties about currency may have inflated the Yes side. Leaving currency issues aside resulted in frankly a very half assed and superficial discussion of what independence means. Of course the logical and proper thing, coming straight out and declaring a new Scottish Pound as a necessary condition of real sovereignty, would have probably resulted in a more lopsided No vote as the short term pain implicit in this choice would have become very evident under close examination. Most people understandably prefer the devil they know. I think this has also highlighted how brave, significant and beneficial it was at the time for the UK and other EU countries to have opted out of the EZ and thus retained some real degree of local sovereignty over their economies.
As for the rest of Europe and the Catalans, Venetans et al making noises about independence, I again see the same currency and EU membership questions probably being sufficient to kill their efforts at the ballot as the same issues are brought under the glare of closer examination. At the least the level of discontent with any status quo will have to be very much higher than it was in Scotland to push past these hard questions. The SNP's canny but cowardly refusal to honestly address these issues artificially inflated the Yes vote beyond what it really should have been under the circumstances.
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Post by fumobici on Sept 19, 2014 15:32:11 GMT
So now we in the UK will all ( including England ) get unprecedented constitutional change and more individual powers - won't we ? anyway I for one am pleased that majority voted No I think it is great that 16/17 year olds were allowed to vote , we need to create more political interest amongst young people, (of course I would say that wouldn't I ) Devo-Max promises made in the heat of the campaign without any consultative or deliberative process should probably be forgot. It was really a tawdry thing to watch. And quite agree on letting 16 year olds vote, we should encourage young people to feel enfranchised rather than locked out of the democratic process.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 16:03:05 GMT
I'm slightly relieved, I must admit, because I don't think states devolving into smaller and smaller entities is what we need today. There have been many rifts lately. When was the last time states confederated/joined together to form a whole? I can't remember.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 16:25:26 GMT
Germany, Yemen, Vietnam
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 16:45:59 GMT
Yes, of course! Duh. Happens more in the opposite direction, though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 16:54:08 GMT
USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Sudan...
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