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Brexit
Aug 1, 2019 19:17:10 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 1, 2019 19:17:10 GMT
I keep reading more and more articles about what could happen -- Scottish independence, Irish unity, etc. -- the thing I feel the sorriest about is that no matter what happens, it is probably going to be humiliating for everybody in the UK. The people did not deserve this. No matter what they voted, it was nobody's intention to humiliate the UK and yet that is what is going to happen.
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 16:21:36 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 28, 2019 16:21:36 GMT
I see that the British parliament has been suspended. Interesting move in a democracy.
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 17:32:33 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Aug 28, 2019 17:32:33 GMT
Appalling! That was the first news I saw this morning and I had to look twice to see that I hadn't read wrong. The people are not taking it lying down. I suppose some of you are following the live feed on The Guardian ( www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/28/spending-review-set-for-next-week-fuels-election-speculation-live ) where this was posted an hour ago: Protests continue to be organised in towns and cities around the country. Here are the details of some:
London Parliament Square, from 5pm
Birmingham Victoria Square, 5.30pm
Liverpool St George’s Plateau, 5.30pm
Milton Keynes Station, 6pm
Chester Town Hall, 7pm
Manchester Albert Square, from 4pm
Edinburgh The Mound, from 4pm (moving to Holyrood at 4.30pm)
Cambridge Market Square, from 6pm
Cardiff Aneurin Bevan Statue, from 6pm
Durham Marketplace, from 6pm
Bristol College Green, 5.30pm
Brighton Bartholomew Square. 5.30pm
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 17:55:49 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 28, 2019 17:55:49 GMT
No wonder Trump likes Johnson -- he approves of Bojo's autocratic moves. Who needs parliament when you have always wanted to be king of the world?
I wonder whether the Queen had the option of refusing?
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 18:05:21 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 28, 2019 18:05:21 GMT
Anyway, the American master has validated the decision, so everything is fine.
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 18:22:14 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Aug 28, 2019 18:22:14 GMT
I wonder whether the Queen had the option of refusing? That was my first thought, too, Bjd. Would refusing an absolutely insane request constitute her meddling in politics? If the Brits here aren't too absolutely demoralized to type, they should be able to enlighten us. And yes, Kerouac, Tweedledum has beamed his approval at Tweedledee.
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 18:48:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by patricklondon on Aug 28, 2019 18:48:39 GMT
The suspension is from September 10th to October 14th. Parliament wouldn't normally have been in session at that time anyway, because it's the season for the political party conferences. On paper, this allows the government to get on with its re-negotiation, such as it might or might not be, and bring something back to parliament before no-deal crash-out day. It also clears the decks for a "back me or sack me" general election, which is clearly in preparation, to judge by the way they're shaking the magic money tree and chucking it about like a drunken sailor. An election would only be right and proper given the circumstances of Johnson's elevation - and of course the opposition parties have been calling for one as well. So not only would it have been impossible for HM to refuse the suspension, there could very well be a democratic figleaf for agreeing to it. Not that it's remotely realistic of Johnson to expect to have anything different to offer than was already rejected in March, of course, but as long as he's the nominee of the biggest party in the Commons, HM really can't refuse his formal Advice on such a matter - unless and until he visibly loses the confidence of the Commons. My blog | My photos | My video clips | My Librivox recordings"too literate to be spam"
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 18:58:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Aug 28, 2019 18:58:08 GMT
Well done Patrick!
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 19:19:23 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 28, 2019 19:19:23 GMT
I just watched a debate about this and it was said that the Queen cannot interfere but must remain "above politics". That answers my question.
But of course, it raises the question of what she and the rest of the royals are actually good for if their role is limited to reading out a notice from time to time.
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 19:50:08 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 28, 2019 19:50:08 GMT
Yes, that old lady costs a lot of money. She used to be good for state visits and various commemorations but not really anymore. And then in a few years, they're going to have to change all of the stamps, banknotes and coins. (Canada, Australia and a number of other places will certainly be delighted with this ridiculous expense.)
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 20:10:54 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 28, 2019 20:10:54 GMT
If it wasn't for Patrick calmly explaining everything I'd be panicking. Thank you. (Altho you'll have to forgive me being in a bit of a flap about it anyway)
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 20:48:10 GMT
Post by mickthecactus on Aug 28, 2019 20:48:10 GMT
The thing is all those saying a no deal is a disaster and we must leave with a deal. What deal?
The only deal on the table is the Theresa May deal rejected 3 times...
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Brexit
Aug 28, 2019 22:01:42 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Aug 28, 2019 22:01:42 GMT
Wow, Patrick! Thank you. So succinct and so well done that I even understand it.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 5:28:09 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 29, 2019 5:28:09 GMT
Cheer up, Mick. No doubt Johnson will come up with a wonderful new deal in the few days he has left, which will be welcomed thankfully by the EU and especially Ireland, although Farage might be upset because he prefers to drive straight into the wall, jumping out just before the shit hits the fan and going to Germany where he will live with his wife.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 5:35:09 GMT
Post by patricklondon on Aug 29, 2019 5:35:09 GMT
But of course, it raises the question of what she and the rest of the royals are actually good for if their role is limited to reading out a notice from time to time. Doing the smiley-wavey thing to add importance and public attention to all those special events in different communities and organisations, and to make the people who spend their time working for them feel recognised and worthwhile. Plus, there is always the nuclear option of not reading out the notice if it really is an egregious breach of the rules: if, for example, Johnson had actually lost a vote of confidence and tried to stop the established process of choosing a successor. In this case, he is testing the limits on parliamentary oversight (this is right back to the fundamental weakness of the way we have handled EU business in Parliament all this time), and far too far given the historic significance of the eventual outcome; but (especially if there is a general election announcement on the way) democratic principle isn't entirely being ignored. At heart, this is an argument about where the weight of democratic legitimacy lies: with the referendum result or with the House of Commons? And where does the responsibility lie for deciding whether there is a thoroughly understood and feasible decision? My blog | My photos | My video clips | My Librivox recordings"too literate to be spam"
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 8:01:59 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Aug 29, 2019 8:01:59 GMT
It would be impossible to put a monetary value on the Queen or several other Royals (many though are not worth it) and I see them as when you consider what the value of the 'goodwill' is when determining the worth of a company. There are different figures bandied about but probably it costs each person in the UK about £1 a year.
I can't imagine what the UK would be like if we got rid of the monarchy. I'm not particularly a monarchist and believe several of the younger member should be culled, or at least have their heads slapped around a bit to see sense, but the UK without the Queen? As a figurehead she does a wonderful job and I would only wish that when she pops her clogs, Princess Anne would be the next one rather than her brother.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 14:12:43 GMT
Post by questa on Aug 29, 2019 14:12:43 GMT
I heard that Phillip told his sons that "Anne had more balls than any of you"
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 16:28:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Aug 29, 2019 16:28:14 GMT
I feel the same about the queen. And albeit I don't find our Flupke the best of our kings I appreciate he is there. Yes he costs but us it so much more than politicians who must rise to power at all cost when king is a profession he knows he'll do his whole life so no personal ambition to gain more power ?
Back to UK the media over here are talking about a coup d'état by Bojo (live thus nickname - there was a Bojo the clown wasn't there ? Or Bozo ?).
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 16:37:49 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 29, 2019 16:37:49 GMT
I have always been fascinated at how impossible it is for people in republics to understand people from kingdoms. I wonder how it is in republics where there was a king in living memory (Greece, Italy, Albania, Egypt...).
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 19:32:24 GMT
Post by lugg on Aug 29, 2019 19:32:24 GMT
At heart, this is an argument about where the weight of democratic legitimacy lies: with the referendum result or with the House of Commons? And where does the responsibility lie for deciding whether there is a thoroughly understood and feasible decision? ... and therein lies the rub. What a shambolic mess. It is quite interesting to see the breakdown and numbers of those who are signing the petition. Quite pitiful really but maybe many think it is a lost cause. This is the breakdown in my local constituency ; but the info is available for all the others.https://prorogue.info/north-herefordshire?fbclid=IwAR0uHjvII6CTcvjW-8L7TqSGbq8xd9X6DgxC2r1CqnsWLR4E00t-iNSlSgQ The latest up date I have seen from opposition leaders ; It is our view that there is a majority in the House of Commons that does not support this prorogation, and we demand that the prime minister reverses this decision immediately or allows MPs to vote on whether there should be one.We condemn the undemocratic actions of Boris Johnson following his suspension of parliament until 14 October.There is no mandate from the public for a damaging no-deal Brexit. The prime minister is shutting down parliament with the sole aim of stopping MPs from avoiding a no-deal Brexit.This will be the longest prorogation in recent history, and one that comes at a critical moment in the history of our respective nations and the Brexit process.Voters are being deprived of the opportunity to have their representatives hold the government to account, make any key decisions, and ensure there is a lawful basis for any action that is taken.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 19:41:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Aug 29, 2019 19:41:00 GMT
It’s been going nowhere for 3 years. I’d rather it went somewhere.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 19:52:49 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Aug 29, 2019 19:52:49 GMT
Frankly, I am very afraid that the date will be pushed back again, in spite of everything that has been said.
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Brexit
Aug 29, 2019 21:09:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by patricklondon on Aug 29, 2019 21:09:30 GMT
There are different figures bandied about but probably it costs each person in the UK about £1 a year. It depends whether you assume (a) all the income from the historic Crown estates should or could accrue to the Treasury for general government expenditure (as opposed to the 70+% that does so now) (b) whether any general government expenditure on maintaining historic royal buildings shouldn't or wouldn't be spent on them anyway as historic buildings (c) whether whatever general government expenditure on support activities in different branches of government (military parades and other ceremonial flim-flam, transport, security at events, general spit-and-polish) shouldn't or wouldn't happen if we had an elected head of state. The amount attributable to taxes as such (as distinct from possible public income foregone - see point (a) above) is indeed likely to be very small. It's all published somewhere, but I can't be bothered to chase it down.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 0:53:45 GMT
Post by questa on Aug 30, 2019 0:53:45 GMT
I know the Queen HAS to give Royal assent to the so-called "advice" her PM gives her, but I feel sorry for her having to be dragged into this mess. She knows that history will show that it was during her watch that democracy took a beating and a scoundrel Bojo tried to rule alone.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 2:42:52 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Aug 30, 2019 2:42:52 GMT
Okay, admittedly I am from the country currently hamstrung by the outcome of the 2016 election because of the ludicrous electoral college system. That would be the same country which in the past has been horrified by election results stemming from the idiotic electoral college system. You know -- the same country that expresses shock and outrage and wrings its hands and then does fuck-all until the the next time to express the same shock, etc. Having said all that, I still have to ask: why the living hell doesn't the UK just have another blankety-blank referendum?! It would give everyone something to do as the clock continues to wind down and the de facto mother country of the US finishes its march over the cliff, only slightly hobbled by having its pants down around its ankles.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 4:52:50 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 30, 2019 4:52:50 GMT
If people and countries were logical in their thinking, UK would indeed have another referendum -- but this time when more people are actually aware of what they are voting for. Unlike the bullshit campaign run by the Leavers in 2016, with Boris's bus with its sign that the £350M they are supposedly paying the EU would go to the health system, with no information about what would happen to the Brits living in the EU and European citizens living in Britain, with actual knowledge that large car manufacturers would leave the UK because the only reason they were there in the first place was for privileged access to the European market. And perhaps the Remain campaign could emphasize the advantages of belonging to the EU like higher labour and food standards, ease of trade and travel...
But this is rarely the case so we all watch Britain heading for a cliff-edge, with Farage smiling and egging it all on, Johnson getting to play tinpot dictator, the members of the Mother of all Parliaments being told to stay home for a few weeks after their holidays instead of doing their job of discussing the situation and passing laws.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 5:01:12 GMT
Post by questa on Aug 30, 2019 5:01:12 GMT
That is because it is being run by men, Bixa If women were running the show it would be,
"You have made a terrible mess in there...get in there and clean it up! Don't argue with me. I expect you to have made progress in half an hour, no diversions. If not, you will be grounded and your play things confiscated. Do we understand each other?"
Indira Gandhi...Bangladesh War 14 days Golda Meyer...6 Day war Margaret Thatcher....Falklands war 5 weeks
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 10:01:34 GMT
Post by lagatta on Aug 30, 2019 10:01:34 GMT
I guess there is no risk of Randy Andy ascending to the Throne...
Cardiff Aneurin Bevan Statue, from 6pm By the way, Aneurin Bevan is considered the father of the NHS.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 11:09:01 GMT
Post by questa on Aug 30, 2019 11:09:01 GMT
Charles is next, then Wills then his sprog George.If this group are not around I think Anne takes precedent now
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2019 11:14:02 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 30, 2019 11:14:02 GMT
I don't know but think that Anne wouldn't get picked simply because she is a woman -- all the men in line would go before her. The only reason women like Elizabeth (I and II), Mary and Victoria got to be queen is that there were no men available in direct line.
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