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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 11, 2017 22:12:24 GMT
I had been wanting to visit Guédelon for a long time, but it is more or less in the middle of nowhere in the region of Burgundy, one of several regions of France to which I am generally not attracted. The concept is fascinating, and it is regularly in the news, though. The project began in 1997, and the purpose is to build a castle using exclusively the techniques of the 13th century. After a few years, when there was some visible progress to be observed, it opened to the public between mid-March and the end of October. The workers make their own tools and use only materials available in the virgin forest surrounding the project. One of the purposes of the project is to rediscover lost techniques of daily life in the 13th century, and it is unknown how long it will take to complete construction. The original hope was to complete the castle in 20 years, but it has become clear now that at least another 10 years will be necessary and quite possibly more. 40 workers are employed on the site for all of the necessary trades -- rock cutting, masonry, logging, blacksmiths, basket weavers, rope making, potters... There are also people to cultivate the medieval kitchen garden, take care of the farm animals and other such things.
Naturally, there are another hundred people for the needs of tourism (restaurant, maintenance of the dry toilets, gift shop, ticket sales...). However, incursion of the modern world is limited as much as possible and regarding the workers mostly consists of wearing safety shoes, protective goggles and hard hats where necessary.
No need for me to tell you more -- you can find most of the answers to any questions on the internet.
Anyway, I followed the road in the misty morning using a good Michelin map, because there are not even any big signs to direct you to the place.
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I arrived slightly ahead of opening time and waited inside the "stable" where there is a very brief audiovisual presentation and some written information.
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This model of the project was built by 10 year old schoolchildren last year.
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This was just one of several car parks, but during this season it did not look like the place would fill up, even though it was the weekend.
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At 10 a.m. the first visitors were able to enter the site.
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About the only "modern" things that you see are the informational signs, in French and English. I must admit that I did not see a single English speaking visitor. Absolutely everybody was French or German, it seemed.
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Most of the workers were arriving at the same time, and most of them bring their dogs to work with them. Even the dogs are medieval since they are led exclusively on hemp ropes or leather straps.
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The fires were just being lit, which means that you have to wait to see certain people at work.
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All of the tools and some of the items that have been made are on display, though.
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I got my first glimpse of the construction site, but I did not rush over there immediately. There were so many other things to see.
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I skirted the walls as I wandered on to whatever I might discover.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 11, 2017 22:25:40 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 11, 2017 22:45:23 GMT
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Post by bjd on Sept 12, 2017 5:10:26 GMT
This is fascinating. I have been wanting to see that place for years now, but of course it's rather out of the way from here. Thanks so much for the detailed pictures.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 5:39:57 GMT
The miller explained how he laboriously made flour with his little grind stone. People constantly ask him after making the long walk to find the mill why it is so far from the medieval village. "Because that's where the water is." And why isn't the wheel turning? "Because the water is too low right now." He had a sifter the size of a tambourine to separate the flour from the bran. It was obvious that it really takes a lot of work to make flour using 13th century techniques.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 5:52:14 GMT
This is the wooden shingle maker's shed.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 6:08:32 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 12:02:30 GMT
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 12, 2017 13:52:06 GMT
Certain things that I would never think of were necessary in a castle in the 13th century. For example, what is this? Big lumps of iron weren't around/easily available, so my guess is it is an anvil. Note the blacksmithing hammers/tools. Also, the photo you took of "the mint", was that close by? Hence the anvil was used for striking coins. Plus the bucket of water in the next photo for cooling them down and hardening them.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 14:00:16 GMT
My photo was the mint!
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Post by lagatta on Sept 12, 2017 15:13:41 GMT
One of the vegetables growing looked like squash/gourd. I thought that was an American vegetable? Unless it was some other vegetable...
There were more eyeglasses on the site than would have been the case at the time. While they were beginning to exist, they were not affordable for skilled tradespersons.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 15:56:32 GMT
That is one of the authorised anachronisms, for security reasons, just like the fact that everybody is wearing proper shoes and probably proper underwear.
I don't know what that vegetable is, but it is certainly not from the Americas, not in the 13th century...
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 16:12:34 GMT
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Post by mossie on Sept 12, 2017 16:24:01 GMT
This is very impressive, just shows how much effort went in to building and maintaining these places. The French seem to be very good at recreating the 'good old days'. Not that the people involved at the time would have thought so.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 12, 2017 16:38:05 GMT
Thanks for the calabash! I thought it was a vegetable carried very early from the Americas and reintroduced there from Africa.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 12, 2017 16:38:28 GMT
LaGatta, those squash are actually a type of bottle gourd which originated in Asia & Africa, but which appear in Europe by the time of the Romans. As for the eyeglasses, etc., I saw somewhere that the workers in Guédelon originally used such medieval items as soft footware, then prudently moved to work boots and other modern appurtenances for safety's sake, as Kerouac points out. Kerouac! You have no idea how thrilled I am to see this report. I've been fascinated by Guédelon for years and can inform you that you may have created the most complete and coherent report to be found on the internet to date. The BBC "farm" series included a five-part segment shot in Guédelon which is fascinating. But your report here really gives the best idea of how things are laid out, how the castle exists in relation to the village, etc. Speaking of which, I'm assuming you have more treats up your sleeve for this report, but would like to know if village dwellings exist yet and if people are/will be living there. I did guess that the mill was so far away because of where the water was, but was surprised by how small it is. Of course that becomes logical when the mill pond is shown. I love the photo of the mill race. What is the guy huddled over the smoky fire doing? Another surprise was the look of the various horse-drawn carts, which seem relatively modern. I suppose that is because the design changed so little in subsequent centuries. The use of wheels throughout the project is also an eye-opener into medieval technology -- the carts, the mill, the impressive pulley systems. That and the sophistication of the math necessary to fashion ceiling beams and other parts of construction really stand out in contrast to the laboriously primitive method of minting coins. I believe the sheep aren't sheared because it's September, thus getting close to winter when they'll need their coats. Speaking of winter, that bedroom hearth is awfully shallow. Also, you'd think they'd have come up with some kind of overhead tent arrangement to keep that room warmer. Who knows -- maybe they did. Oh, another thing that this report brings home is the denseness and proximity of the forest. It explains why in stories like Little Red Riding Hood small children are allowed to walk through the woods alone. It was just part of living, undoubtedly with some paths running through it. Sorry my comments are all over the place, it's just that I'm genuinely excited to see this excellent reportage on a fascinating project. pee ess ~ I see that while I was writing my reply in medieval time, you already answered LaGatta in modern time!
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 12, 2017 16:57:03 GMT
See. I was right.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 17:08:20 GMT
Thanks -- I'm glad that there is a bit of interest in this report. Bixa, there are no village dwellings yet, but such things are clearly part of the project once they have finished the castle, maybe around 2025. There is no plan to end the project as long as it elicits the interest of the public, just as some of the workers were saying that their techniques should improve little by little as they redicover tricks of the trade from the Middle Ages. Their main objective is not to cheat.
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 12, 2017 18:40:11 GMT
Their main objective is not to cheat. I enjoy looking at their 'technology' and the tools they are using. They are forgiven for using what appears to be modern metals for the spade, axe etc as getting that right would be a bit too much. Sometime in the past there was a move from wooden spades/shovels to that of metal, with an overlap of a wooden bladed spade with a metal shoe on the edges. When that was and if it was about this period, I have no idea. I think I'm going to have to go there because I also wonder about the nails used, or the screws for joining wood, and the types of joints used (I can see a lot of them are pegged for example, which would be right). And the rope? Modern health and safety would probably not let you use medieval type stuff I'd think. "It was only later that I wondered about the 13th century techniques for shearing wool..." They had a version of the same kind of hand shears you see nowadays. Probably needed sharpening more often though.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 12, 2017 19:05:06 GMT
The woodworker kept me spellbound for some time because what he was doing seemed so impossible -- cutting a log, trimming off the bark and ending up with board that you might find in a modern supply shop. imageshack.com/a/img923/3444/cjbFAZ.jpg imageshack.com/a/img923/7365/WJkJON.jpgimageshack.com/a/img924/7931/QSyGbw.jpg imageshack.com/a/img924/9513/pnmNAR.jpgEven though the final result is not "perfect" as per our modern criteria, it is still amazing. Since my apartment has beams like this, just as uneven, it really hits home to me. s19.postimg.cc/dx904itxv/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_386.jpgFor anybody who thought that the wagons looked surprisingly "modern", this wheelbarrow should indicate that not as much care was taken for workers' equipment. s19.postimg.cc/r3yg41pn7/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_387.jpgHere is another workshop. It is proof of my own hopelessly anachronistic brain that I don't know what was being done here. s19.postimg.cc/a8eprauj7/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_388.jpgI confess that I was now beginning to head in the direction of the exit, so I longingly looked back at the castle site. s19.postimg.cc/561za9amr/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_389.jpgs19.postimg.cc/sqnnpa1oz/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_390.jpgMy last visit was to the rope maker's shed. s19.postimg.cc/f4mxwqk2b/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_391.jpgMore hens, but these were annoying to the ropemaker, because they were constantly trying to eat her raw material. s19.postimg.cc/4dzbb26fn/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_392.jpgIf somebody gives you a bunch of these and asks you to make ropes, would you know what to do? s19.postimg.cc/k9sqs3mdv/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_396.jpgs19.postimg.cc/ku36h1q8j/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_393.jpgs19.postimg.cc/vi6xfw07n/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_394.jpgUnfortunately, this lovely ropemaker said that since it was lunchtime, she would not begin making ropes again for two hours. s19.postimg.cc/8i0a3k2dv/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_395.jpgIt was time for me to leave after two and a half hours, but I totally regretted it. One needs to spend much more time here to fully appreciate what is being done. My problem was that it was Sunday and I had to drive back to Paris, which is often a nightmare on Sunday afternoon. It turned out not to be, but I couldn't know that ahead of time. On the bright side, I have every intention of returning as soon as possible (but not until next year of course). This at least is one place that you can be sure will not be the same year after year since it will continuously evolve. Next time I will know how to time my visit -- have lunch on the site -- and see many things that I did not see this time. For example, since I arrived this time at the same time as the workers, there was no way to see the blacksmiths at work. They need to heat their fires for a few hours before being able to ply their trade, and it is probably the same for a number of other professions. But this was an excellent first taste of Guédelon and I do not at all regret my visit. The car park was much fuller by the time I left, including the parking area for tour buses. s19.postimg.cc/bhbs4f18z/sep2017-vosgesbourgogne_397.jpgAnd here is a tiny video to give you an idea of the workers in action. I didn't ask although I was wondering about that, too. My own 21st century reply is that they needed two people on that site just to keep each other company when no visitors were there (which much be relatively often), but that is just conjecture. I found myself peering closely at all of the tools myself and was unable to reach a verdict. At first I thought that all of the shovels were modern, but then when I saw how they were put together, they definitely were not, although you are probably correct in thinking that the metal is of a much higher quality than back then. Before I entered the complex, I was looking at the contruction of the outer buildings such as -- for example -- the inevitable gift shop. The main beams were held together with wooden pegs (just like my attic, which is 18th century rather than 13th century), but I saw quite a few nails on the smaller boards. I have not checked when iron/steel nails began to be used, but they definitely seemed anachronistic to me. I will absolutely not hold that against them (21st century building codes and all), and I really feel that they did a brilliant job for the most part. And I suppose that's all I have to say about this place for the moment.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 13, 2017 4:24:35 GMT
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 13, 2017 7:04:39 GMT
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 13, 2017 7:17:39 GMT
Those three presenters have done a number of series on that kind of theme. I think there was a farming one or something like that.
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Post by questa on Sept 13, 2017 8:47:57 GMT
The beams in the dining hall blow my mind. The horizontal ones are so even, straight strong but delicate. What timbers were used? It seems the vertical supports were just tied with rope to the trusses. Your pic of the ceiling immediately after the dining table pic is fantastic. I am trying to remember when hammer beam ceilings became popular...this one is starting to show this style, I think. Thanks for the tour, Great descriptions and pix.
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 13, 2017 12:58:06 GMT
This is so good but I'm only getting a chance to skim it. Maybe tomorrow.
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 13, 2017 13:35:06 GMT
I'm having a run through of that series Patrick mentioned. Very interesting though I'm not that far into it yet. However, the subject of nails has come up. I know nail making is centuries old and a smith would do all of them by hand. It seems the nails used here are authentic and, for example, the bridge across to the entrance between the two towers needed 677 of them. All hand forged. I'm curious about the odd number though. Maybe they broke one. Normally you would expect metal working to be done by men, but nail making was traditionally done by women, it was said.
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 13, 2017 13:56:38 GMT
I'm having a run through of that series Patrick mentioned. Very interesting though I'm not that far into it yet. However, the subject of nails has come up. I know nail making is centuries old and a smith would do all of them by hand. It seems the nails used here are authentic and, for example, the bridge across to the entrance between the two towers needed 677 of them. All hand forged. I'm curious about the odd number though. Maybe they broke one. Normally you would expect metal working to be done by men, but nail making was traditionally done by women, it was said. Are you sure it's not nail painting?
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 13, 2017 14:10:07 GMT
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 13, 2017 14:18:41 GMT
Uh-oh. You're asking for trouble, you are. I'm going to keep my head down.
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 13, 2017 14:20:30 GMT
Maybe they had to have the medieval metalworkers equivalent of the bakers dozen.
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