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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 2, 2017 10:48:57 GMT
I think it's kind of horrifying that I am almost more worried about what POTUS is going to tweet about an event like this than the whole sad story that will unfold.
Not much point in putting a link yet since the story is going so fast. From 20 dead to 50+ in less than an hour...
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 10:50:55 GMT
No! I read 2 and 10 minutes ago 20 and now up to 50?
Hard to know what to say.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 10:54:32 GMT
Gunman aged 64. So not some mad kid.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 2, 2017 10:55:10 GMT
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Post by onlyMark on Oct 2, 2017 11:14:26 GMT
Someone will say it is a terrorist attack. Someone will say it isn't a terrorist attack. Someone will demand tougher gun laws. Someone will say it is the person who kills, not the gun. Someone will say if everyone was armed it wouldn't have happened.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 2, 2017 11:47:57 GMT
Well, in any case D. Trump said in the past that a killing such as happened at the Bataclan in Paris could never happen in the United States.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 12:31:59 GMT
They have recovered 8 weapons from the room per news just now.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 2, 2017 12:45:54 GMT
I also read that this brings the total death count by firearm in the United States to 11,621 so far in 2017.
43 people (not all deceased) have been shot in the United States this year by children under the age of 4.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 12:51:04 GMT
406 people in hospital
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 14:04:02 GMT
Make that 10 rifles recovered.
What say you NRA?
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 14:18:16 GMT
IS have now claimed responsibility and the gunman converted to Islam a few months ago per BBC news.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 15:48:49 GMT
58 dead and 515 in hospital per police.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 16:02:02 GMT
272 mass shootings in America this year so far.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Oct 2, 2017 16:21:25 GMT
It's a terrorist attack irrespective of the gunman's race, beliefs or mental state. Shocking and awful.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 16:32:03 GMT
What are warmest condolences?
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Post by bjd on Oct 2, 2017 16:44:57 GMT
What are warmest condolences? They are condolences that are reheated every time there is another mass shooting.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 2, 2017 18:14:09 GMT
Trudeau sent deepest condolences.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 3, 2017 15:34:05 GMT
Guardian says there is a mass shooting every 9 days out of 10 in the US. Mass shootings means 4 guys shot. They also say there are 265 millions Guns in the US. Plus a few illegal I guess.
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Post by mossie on Oct 3, 2017 18:49:25 GMT
Papers are saying there have been more killed by guns in America in last 50 years than all Americans killed in wars back to and including American Civil War. No comment
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Post by questa on Oct 4, 2017 11:42:48 GMT
What puzzles me is that the main argument for people to carry guns is so that in the event of an attack they would be able to defend themselves and family. So, at Mandalay Bay, how many people were carrying firearms at the scene? How many used their weapon in self defence and shot back at the shooter? This could have saved many lives. I don't think anybody was reported as assisting the Police but it would be interesting to ask the community whether the right to bear arms doesn't carry the responsibility of helping the police as well.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 4, 2017 11:53:53 GMT
Not just in Las Vegas, but there has never been any case of 2nd amendment righters ever using their guns in defence at any terrorist or other killing event. I read one report where one of the people attending the concert said "we had guns but we didn't dare pull them out, because the police would have thought we were responsible."
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 4, 2017 13:20:33 GMT
As I understand it, he was firing from high up in a hotel some distance away from the arena. I doubt if, in all the confusion, the average crowd member would have had the faintest idea where the shots were coming from, let alone the weaponry and presence of mind to be able to fire at the right spot with any chance of success. I'd imagine that in most such situations, it would indeed only complicate the police's job if anyone else started shooting. My blog | My photos | My video clips My Librivox | "too literate to be spam"
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Post by onlyMark on Oct 4, 2017 14:59:24 GMT
From the 32nd floor of the hotel to the music festival area is about 400 metres (I'm anal in that way, I've measured it). Also he was shooting downhill and had firearms that weren't your normal pistol type thus having a greater range. A normal unaltered and readily available handgun is little use, unless you are really, really good with them, over 40 to 50 metres. They are not accurate. Shooting uphill and at that distance, with what people would usually carry, would only draw attention to yourself, and have no effect other than that. He anyway was quite happy to pull the trigger and spray rather than take accurate shots as he probably knew he'd have a far lesser total of deaths if he tried at that distance. Even if the broken window was spotted and known to be where the shots were coming from, firing back with a handgun would be futile to say the least.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 4, 2017 15:36:22 GMT
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Post by mossie on Oct 4, 2017 19:17:59 GMT
Taking Mark's point, your average handgun would not be able to kill at 400 yards, let alone get a round anywhere near the aiming point. 40 yards perhaps, but that would be a lucky shot.
As an above average shot, I can remember being mortified when we were at last let loose with .38 revolvers on a 15 yard range firing at a target about a foot square. My cocky 18 year old self thought "Piece of piss to get these 6 shots on the target". I got 3! there is a saying about being unable to hit a barn door, and that has a ring of truth.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2017 19:30:28 GMT
This morning on US news I saw a discussion about whether or not Congress would move to illegalize the sort of device the murderer in Las Vegas used to make his guns fire faster.
Titanic. Deck chairs.
In Kerouac's link above there is a set of thumbnails showing Obama's mass shooting speeches. There are nine thumbnails. He was only in office for eight years.
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Post by onlyMark on Oct 4, 2017 19:49:24 GMT
Illegalize is a word I was interested in as I can't really remember ever using it. I've used legalise but not the opposite other than criminalise. I find it is from about 1818 and as you do, wondered what other words were first known to be used then. Ever heard of pomology? "...the science and practice of growing fruit." Which leads me to believe that the USA is reaping what they have sown. Unfortunately to the cost of thousands of innocent people.
I underwent a period of firearms training, at my prompting, to see if it was for me. Nope, not in a million years. As normally a fairly calm individual it made my hands shake, for whatever psychological reasons I didn't go into but I suspect there was a battle going on in my brain between the half that said this is good experience and worthwhile trying and the other half that had a powerful aversion to them. In any case, I learnt a lot. Especially regarding handguns as opposed to rifles and semi-automatic/automatic death machines.
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Post by questa on Oct 5, 2017 3:19:04 GMT
K2, Patrick, Mark, Mossie and Bixa...thank you very much for your responses. It seems that the reason pro gun laws continue to exist has little to do with defence of self or family and more to do with "Mine is bigger than yours!" (or faster, more lethal, more expensive)
Just as the popular self image of Australian men involves sun, sea, surfing, beaches and bronzed fit bodies, so the self image of a certain group of American men derives from Hollywood creations. The settlers, farmers, stockmen, explorers, miners and ordinary people became heroes when they took on a massive country and developed it. What did they all have in common? Guns. Who were the hero's heros? Gunslingers.
As the above posters have shown, shooting at things, even targets, raises all sorts of emotional and other issues. When shooting at tin cans on the fence becomes stockpiling an arsenal of Death-dealing weaponry, the argument for self defence is patently ridiculous.
And that fellow over there, he got on the bus at the kindergarten. I hope he is not going home to a collection of guns and no friends.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 16:36:40 GMT
I really admire and respect your train of thought and reasoning Questa and how you are able to say it so succinctly. How did you become that wise?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 16:38:42 GMT
K2, Patrick, Mark, Mossie and Bixa...thank you very much for your responses. It seems that the reason pro gun laws continue to exist has little to do with defence of self or family and more to do with "Mine is bigger than yours!" (or faster, more lethal, more expensive) Just as the popular self image of Australian men involves sun, sea, surfing, beaches and bronzed fit bodies, so the self image of a certain group of American men derives from Hollywood creations. The settlers, farmers, stockmen, explorers, miners and ordinary people became heroes when they took on a massive country and developed it. What did they all have in common? Guns. Who were the hero's heros? Gunslingers. As the above posters have shown, shooting at things, even targets, raises all sorts of emotional and other issues. When shooting at tin cans on the fence becomes stockpiling an arsenal of Death-dealing weaponry, the argument for self defence is patently ridiculous. And that fellow over there, he got on the bus at the kindergarten. I hope he is not going home to a collection of guns and no friends. See previous post in response to Questa. (My computer is acting up, sorry).
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