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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 20, 2018 19:51:43 GMT
The parliament in France has voted that vegetarian foods will no longer be allowed to use meat related terms to sell their products. This is only logical since about a year ago, terms like "almond milk" or "soy yogurt" were banned from the dairy section. Frankly, this seems totally logical to me. If you are a true vegetarian, why would you want to pretend that you are eating simili-meat?
Some names are easy to change. Soy milk became "soy drink" with absolutely no problem. I'm sure that soy steaks will become "soy patties" the same way. But how do you rename a fake sausage? And why should it even look like a sausage? Will vegetarians turn away from these items if they are renamed "vegetal blobs" or "soy tubes?"
It will be interesting to see if vegetarianism continues to progress or it will decline if the terms are less appealing if they don't refer to meat anymore.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 20, 2018 19:58:08 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 20, 2018 22:49:16 GMT
If you are a true vegetarian, why would you want to pretend that you are eating simili-meat? I have wondered that for years! Admittedly, if one is easing into vegetarianism for the first time or maybe trying to pull the family into it, foods that mimic familiar ones might help. Still, why would those foods need meat-like names? Personally, I'm an advocate of negative reinforcement -- doing numbers on your mind that turn you away from whatever you want to give up, be it cigarettes, meat, or whatever. Since many vegetarians eschew meat because of health &/or ethical concerns, it does indeed seem contraindicated to offer them foods masquerading as meat.
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Post by mickthecactus on Apr 21, 2018 5:53:37 GMT
Vegetarian bacon is even stranger.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 23, 2018 19:36:36 GMT
Things such as sausages and burgers are handy. I dislike this legislation, because it is deliberately hampering vegetarian options. Such options are very useful when catering to groups that include omnivores and vegetarians (as I know from such planning). Should steak have to be labelled as dead bovine?
In Italian, polpetta has always referred to any kind of "balls" (no, not those ones!!!) whether made of mammalian meat, poultry, fish or vegetarian ingredients. Soya drink or beverage causes no problem, but everyone still calls it soya milk. I see no reason why vegetarian "balls" should not be called "boulettes" as long is it is clear to consumers that they aren't meat products.
This legislation exists to give an unfair advantage to meat producers over those who are producing alternative protein products.
Kosher and Halal bacon exist, but they are made from meat (not pig, obviously) or poultry.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 23, 2018 19:50:31 GMT
That is an interesting viewpoint, LaGatta, and I find myself agreeing with you.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 23, 2018 20:48:10 GMT
"I Can't Believe It's Not Butter."
I am completely in favour of banning the inappropriate animal words from vegetarian and vegan foods.
"Balls" are just boulettes in French. They can be made out of anything, including dirt.
I see no unfair advantage. The "advantage" so far has been the opposite -- allowing people to mislabel food items. It has nothing to do with vegetarian or non vegetarian -- "ham" in France is a very specific item which must be distinguished from "épaule" which was incorrectly labeled for decades to trick consumers. "Epaule" is a less noble part of the pig with much more fat content. I still remember when all of the pizzerias in Paris had to cross out the word "jambon" on their menus to replace it with "épaule" as an ingredient. They survived.
When I was very young, I know that most Americans called margarine "butter." Thank god that things have evolved.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 23, 2018 21:44:10 GMT
When you were very young, most Americans called margarine "oleo". There was a clear distinction between margarine and butter, which led to the "can't believe it's not butter" ad for margarine -- because everyone knew butter was better.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 23, 2018 21:44:38 GMT
Thinking more about variations on this subject, I am quite proud of the progress that the EU has made on this subject over the years, for example, returning the term "feta" to exclusively Greek cheese even though the Netherlands and France produce a far greater amount of feta copies (now just called "ewe cheese" in France but that did not turn us away from the French product). And of course parmesan cheese comes only from Parma and not out of a green tube made by Kraft. And of course most people are aware of the constant battle in France for more than 50 years to protect the use of the word "champagne."
Removing inappropriate names from vegetarian products is only logical. It is not all that difficult to come up with unambiguous names. After all, nobody calls nylon synthetic silk anymore or refers to vinyl as imitation leather. Truth in labeling is essential.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 23, 2018 22:05:02 GMT
Everyone knows that ersatz steaks, bacon, hot dogs, etc. come from the gentle, sturdy Nauga. It will be interesting to see if vegetarianism continues to progress or it will decline if the terms are less appealing if they don't refer to meat anymore. Continuing with my flip-flop position on this subject, I can see how vegetarians object to the use of meat terms for vegetarian foodstuffs since it tacitly assumes that meat products are desirable.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 23, 2018 23:01:50 GMT
I understand and agree with where K2 is coming from, because he is referring to the struggle against ersatz, against cheaper and potentially harmful ingredients. That goes back to the Middle Ages at least, when some pretty horrible ingredients went into the meat pies that were a staple as they kept longer. There were also ersatz items in wartime. I most certainly agree that vegetarian foodstuffs should not claim to be carné (meat-based) nor should meat products be identified as vegetarian ones.
But things like "sausages" are very general indeed - specific sausages are very precisely defined - and there have always been jokes that many sausages in some countries are pretty much vegetarian! Indeed, if I serve spinach polpette to francophone friends, I simply call them spinach boulettes (spinach boulettes can also contain meat). I simply thought that the meat producers had an animus against vegetarianism, and were (logically) trying to protect their market.
But frankly, in France, I don't see Morrissey getting shouty about "Meat is murder". I basically want people to live and let live, which has been pretty much the case in France. Labelling should include ingredients, for a variety of reasons including allergies. Unlike restaurants selling capicollo as ham, vegetarian food producers are not trying to convince anyone that their foods are made from meat, on the contrary.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 24, 2018 4:02:20 GMT
There is still in interesting grey area about "boulettes" and other such items in France (and probably the entire EU) in which consumers are often tricked into buying something that they think is 100% meat but which is often up to 30% soy. It is the famous preposition trick: boulettes au boeuf vs boulettes de boeuf -- in other words "balls with beef vs balls of beef". Most people don't notice the crucial word.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 24, 2018 4:23:37 GMT
That is similar to the "with 100% fruit juice" on a product that is really mostly water and sugar. You would think the price difference would alert people to look more closely, but apparently many don't. There is a product sold here with the long-life milk called Nutri-Leche. I needed a box of milk the other day & the lady in the tiny grocery in the market handed me Nutri-Leche, saying "This one is cheaper." I told her I didn't use that because it contained vegetable oil. "¡A poco!" she said, examining the label. She was blown away, saying that I'd taught her something new. I'd have thought that the boredom factor of being stuck in that small space all day long would have had her reading all the labels over time.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 24, 2018 8:36:14 GMT
Yes, the rapidly expanding Dutch Vegetarian Butcher chain doesn't seem to have any outlets in France, though they do in Spain and Portugal. I was surprised by how many vegetarian Portuguese young people I've met, always thinking of that as a country that loved fish and meat. Idem in Catalonia, but I don't know about the rest of the "Spanish state" as Portugese and Basque autonomists call it. www.thevegetarianbutcher.com/I don't usually eat things like that, but I have had some vegetarian liverwurst in the Netherlands and really liked it, and it seemed less unhealthy than real liverwurst. The Economist has a good story on the controversy - which is fuelling sales by the chain: www.economist.com/news/business/21731869-dutch-vegetarian-butcher-latest-come-under-attack-its-labelling-plant-based-meat
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 24, 2018 14:49:50 GMT
I am frankly shocked that any ethical vegetarian enterprise would want to use the word "butcher." However, if they are only in it for the money...
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Post by lagatta on Apr 24, 2018 14:57:33 GMT
It's a joke. Their logo features a "butcher" chopping up carrots with orange carrot blood on his or her butcher's apron (I've seen the butcher depicted as a woman and as a man). Don't expect to understand the Dutch sense of humour. It is very strange, even for Belgians. This one is a bit over-the-top though: www.bbc.com/news/business-43802572 a vegetarian burger that "bleeds".
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Post by lagatta on Apr 25, 2018 19:14:53 GMT
Looking into this issue has meant coming upon some very strange sites and concepts, such as "clean eating" and a guy trying to convince everyone to be vegan for if not they will come down with cancer, diabetes and other serious diseases. By the way, I very much agree with K2 about truth in labelling; it is simply that sometimes how it is framed is the result of undue industry influence.
I was thinking of the boulettes au boeuf with tofu - was the ingredient on the label? There are rare but severe allergies to most forms of protein; certainly soya; of course fish and seafood (my chouchous) are well-known. At school I had a Jewish friend who was allergic to beef and this was viewed as a dire problem decades ago, as while not Orthodox, the family was observant enough not to eat beef, and there was a belief in many places that people needed red (mammalian) meat.
The chicken balls I'm making tonight will be "dirty", because as well as some almond meal, I'm also adding some breadcrumbs, viewed as "unclean" by clean-eating and paleo enthusiasts.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 25, 2018 19:34:32 GMT
Oh, yes the full list of ingredients is always listed in descending order. After all, it's the law, even in North America, I think. It is something I like to read, but how many people do? Frankly, if it tasted good, I wouldn't mind 30% soy in meatballs, but you really can taste the difference and they are pretty awful. I guess if there were no choice, one would get used to them. I prefer to make my own meatballs, because I know what is in them.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 25, 2018 22:40:36 GMT
Well, I just did. That is, I made the mixture and formed the balls (they are small ones, it is one of those fussy Moroccan recipes). They are firming overnight in the fridge and I'll put them in my little countertop oven (at least 3 batches) very early tomorrow morning, before I get to work. These are chicken balls with almond meal as well as an egg and some chapelure.
I don't think either you or I are much affected by this measure, as we cook. I have zero intention of going vegan, though in my life I have to cater to vegans both in terms of facilitating seminars and a few vegan friends. I have pretty much cut out "red" (I mean mammalian) meat, for environmental reasons, though of course there are regions where that would be absurd in environmental terms, from the Scottish Highlands to Arctic regions. And that is what I cook; I don't insist that anyone should "accommodate" this, as I'm not a pure vegetarian nor to I have any religious or ethical opposition to eating flesh, as long as the animals aren't mistreated. After all, one of my best friends on earth is a tiny obligate carnivore.
I think my personal interest in this is because I had very severe food allergies as a baby and child, and these have had effects on my entire life. So I care deeply about listing ingredients (and highlighting common allergens) but also not impeding production of foods free of such allergens. And I certainly understand people who have a strong ethical objection to eating other sentient beings.
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