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Post by whatagain on Oct 7, 2018 17:59:46 GMT
Hello
We are going to vote - in 2 weeks for municipals, in may (?) for federal and regional (I think). I will be noting some impressoins about our politics.
First you must know that basically, Belgians don't care about politics. Not somehting we discuss a lot. Second, our politicians have been source of numerous scandals recently (Publifin, CPAS, etc) and confidence in our politicians is low. Third, our politics is seen through a linguistic lens : we cannot vote for a fedral party, these don't exisit anymore : we have flemish socialists and wallon socialist for example. Fourth, we usually make a coalitoin to govern. Bipartite, tripartite, etc. Lastly we had a 'arc en ciel' (rainbow) coalition becasue there were so many parties with som many different colours.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 7, 2018 18:15:08 GMT
Municipals are not likely to create chaos. We usually vote for one person (man or woman) who will be elected for 5 years as mayor (we say Bourgmeestre). The way it goes is relatively easy : we choose a party (most of federal parties are represented plus some ad-hoc that I don't know how they appear). Main parties are For Wallonia - socialists : red, leftists - understand center left - MR (mouvement réformateur) : blue, right used to be center right, now I'd say right - CdH C? des humanistes (yeah, I don't get it either) former christians. Ornage, Left - sometimes center left sometimes left center. - Ecolo : green, left - more left than ceter left but not yet full left. Something that bothers me actually : why do you have to be leftist to vote green ? - PTB (parti des travailleurs belges) : like in most countries, when you say you are with the workers, you're a fraud. Left. Clearly left. Populist. - PP : parti polaire : far right. populist. I didn't like their leader when we were together at school and I don't like him now. Anti immigrant, anti... anti .. - FN : front national : far right. Idiots. Bastards. Riddled with stupid guys, most are in trouble with justice. Leader caught singing a version of a 'comptinne' (children's song) deformed about a Maria who is a Jew and is swimming in a bath of acid in Auschwitz... or the like. Classy. You vote for them, you hide it. Less than 2%...
Flanders - N-VA (nationale (?) Vlaams Alliantie : flemish. populists. among key reforms : Belgie barst ! Make Belgium explode... Smart, unfortunately. - Open VLD : right, corresponds to MR - CD&V : christen democraten & Vlaams : corresponds roughly to CdH but still proud of being christian AND flemish. - SpA : socilaists. - Vlaams Belang : formerly Vlaams Blok that I found better name : more aggressive. Far right. Bastards. All of these are about equal, with CD&V above. - several others, among which Groen, Ecolos..
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 7, 2018 18:15:26 GMT
I find Belgian politics endlessly fascinating as well as rather mysterious. The fact that Belgium continued without a government for 18 months in 2010-2011 is astounding, but perhaps more so because it proved that basic municipal and regional services can continue to function reasonably well without any sort of effective national authority. It makes you wonder about the utility of national governments for many issues and yet the national politicians never seem to shut up. They have opinions about everything and an endless quantity of things to denounce.
It also seems clear that the "language monster" is a real problem in certain countries with multiple languages. Different languages definitely divide the population and prevent them from finding common ground. And yet this is so much more discreet in countries like Switzerland, even though I have Swiss friends who keep me abreast of the "rösti" division of the country. I do not understand why it has to be this way, except for the obvious reason: people with different languages automatically have different cultures.
I hope that you will continue to tell us about Belgian politics. Can you confirm that there is no national census in Belgium because the Flemish do not want to discover if the Walloons are gaining importance?
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Post by amboseli on Oct 9, 2018 15:04:55 GMT
Whatagain is right as far as I am concerned. Politics doesn't interest me one bit. I'm glad I don't have to vote (voting is compulsory in Belgium) 'cause I'm in Spain. I simply wouldn't know who to vote for. All parties have something good and bad in their programs.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 9, 2018 15:19:54 GMT
The French are both confused and amused by the Belgian elections. If you don't speak French, just check out the political ad at 1:23.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 9, 2018 19:49:26 GMT
heard on radio 2 things today - one : vote is complusory but 20% of the votes are not valid (they didn't elaborate if this takes into account non votes, and blank votes or discarde votes (such as the ones with 'Merde' on it). According to sampling methods, 38% of Belgians would not vote if given te choice. Same result both side of linguistic border. - two : no age limit - the eldest guy was 87 - he just died yesterday. He would have been elected for 5 years, making it a young active guy of hardly 92 at the end of his mandate.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 10, 2018 1:09:15 GMT
I would like to say that I am following this, but it's more accurate to say that I am desperately trying to follow it. When I read the thread title I thought we were going to get a nice simplified version of how Belgian politics work. But it's super complicated! Whatagain's run-down of the parties & their platforms does help to show why it's so complicated, as does Kerouac's comment about how different languages have different cultures by default. I am wondering if it's that Belgians truly don't care to discuss politics because of lack of interest, or is it because they're afraid fighting will break out. It's all very interesting, and I suppose inevitable given Belgium's history.
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 10, 2018 9:11:14 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 10, 2018 9:56:37 GMT
I just wish that France had preferential voting on the municipal lists. It would be pure dynamite for some of the people incrusted in municipal councils like barnacles.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 12, 2018 16:23:27 GMT
Yes. We have preferential votes and a cascade of votes non attributed - when people just vote for the party. The higher on the list the more votes you get. A novelty this year - lists must have equal number of men and women and in alternance.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 12, 2018 17:20:24 GMT
That's good -- we started that a few years ago. It really makes a difference.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 18, 2018 5:47:50 GMT
Some interesting results from the Belgian elections... The Greens and the radical left progressed considerably while the traditional parties are all in decline. Ecolo (the green party) won three town halls in the Brussels-Capital region and came in second in six others. It will arbitrate the city hall of Brussels itself, because the Socialist party will need to have a coalition. Ecolo got 16.8% of the vote.
In Antwerp the Groen party got 18.4% of the vote. Meanwhile, in the former industrial cities, it is the Marxist PTB which made a splash -- 15.8% in Charleroi, 16.5% in Liège. It conquered 16 towns in Wallonia. Unfortunately, in Flanders the far right Vlaams Belang is still growing...
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Post by bjd on Oct 18, 2018 6:37:37 GMT
I confess that I didn't know there were elections in Belgium. But am glad to see the Greens did so well. As Kerouac said, since the country managed without a national government for such a long time, having some Green input at municipal and regional levels is a good thing.
I also do not understand how people can vote for extremes like self-defined Marxists or Vlaams Belang. It can only be a protest vote against "politics as usual" because these parties can contribute nothing positive to the country and are simply against everything.
Yes, preferential voting would be good in France too. Coalitions would reflect political opinion more than the current system. Although, it might give Melenchon, "Mr I am the Republic" even more to say.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 19, 2018 19:38:43 GMT
Yes, Kerouac got the most of it : Far left gain in Wallonia, Far right consolidate in Flanders. Nazi like Vallams belang (formerly vlaams blok) conquered Ninove, a city north east (or NW) of Brussels. Lots of hitlerain salutes to celebrate..; Ecolo fortunately capture a lot of votes. So we end up in the same 'italian' situation : north goes right, south goes left. Good luck for governance. Next elections : fedral - in may.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 23, 2018 18:26:01 GMT
Yes. We have preferential votes and a cascade of votes non attributed - when people just vote for the party. The higher on the list the more votes you get. A novelty this year - lists must have equal number of men and women and in alternance. I don't know what preferential voting is.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 23, 2018 18:50:25 GMT
It's where there is a list of candidates -- for example for a municipal council that elects 20 people. Each political party will present a list of 20 candidates but in most countries only the people at the top of the list will be elected according to the percentage that the party received. So there is a big battle to see who will be higher on the list with a better chance of being elected. In places with preferential voting, it is the voters who decide which candidates they prefer, so even the last person on the list can be elected. Since so many of us are fed up with the old style politicians, who yes, have spent 30 or more years climbing up the party hierarchy, but many of them are old farts that you don't want to see anymore. Preferential voting allows you to prefer new faces even when the party bosses want you to vote otherwise.
It is sort of as though in a U.S. presidential election, one were allowed to prefer the vice presidential candidate to the other one.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 23, 2018 20:21:26 GMT
Menawhile the syndicate FGTB (federation GÉNÉRALE des travailleurs belges) an émanation of socialist party is unhappy with PS conducting discussions with MR (right). So they sent a letter to a lot of socialist cells who have a room in their buildings (FGTB is quite rich and invested in buildings) that the rent would be cancelled if they didn't stop these discussions. I heard the interview and the unionist managed to try sound convint when refuting this was a blackmail or a threat. So the Left socialist syndicate is shooting at their left socialist mother party. Then socialist P Magnette said he proposed to the PTB to rule in some places together. Declaring the same day that PTB would refusé but that he wanted to hear their refusal. Why not. This is belgium after all.
Did I say I live in a municipality where no left party bothered to create a list ? Don't think there was an ecological list either. Yet there are a Tesla 600 HP and A Porsche hybrid and 2 twizzy in my street (for the kids obviously). We are concerned about pollution ...
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 23, 2018 21:37:06 GMT
Thanks, Kerouac.
Some of that sounds like childish obstructionism, Whatagain.
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Post by mich64 on Oct 23, 2018 22:31:27 GMT
We just had our municipal election yesterday. We voted in an early poll due to my husband being scheduled to work his 24 hour shift yesterday. I was surprised at how anxious I was as I listened for the results on our local radio station!
We were very worried about one of the challengers for the Mayor's position, it was close like we thought it would be, but our incumbent Mayor prevailed. There were 26 candidates for 10 councillor seats, 6 of our 10 choices made it and we were very happy as there had been so much animosity with the last council, we are glad there are 5 new members. It was not that the ones who did not make it back were the problem, it was the combination of them that needed to broken up. The one thing that is different about our municipal elections is that there is no Federal or Provincial party mentions, unless you personally knew one of them, one does not think about the parties at all. We do know which party the Mayor belongs to because he was previously our Member of Parliament, but that did not factor into my decision one way or another.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 16, 2018 0:14:25 GMT
I don't know what preferential voting is. It's where there is a list of candidates -- for example for a municipal council that elects 20 people. Each political party will present a list of 20 candidates but in most countries only the people at the top of the list will be elected according to the percentage that the party received. So there is a big battle to see who will be higher on the list with a better chance of being elected. In places with preferential voting, it is the voters who decide which candidates they prefer, so even the last person on the list can be elected. Since so many of us are fed up with the old style politicians, who yes, have spent 30 or more years climbing up the party hierarchy, but many of them are old farts that you don't want to see anymore. Preferential voting allows you to prefer new faces even when the party bosses want you to vote otherwise. Is ranked voting the same as preferential voting? You say "a list of candidates -- for example for a municipal council that elects 20 people", but can there be a list of candidates for a single office? edition.cnn.com/2018/11/15/politics/democrats-maine-house-ranked-choice-jared-golden/index.html
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Post by patricklondon on Nov 16, 2018 5:56:48 GMT
Some countries use party list proportional representation, as Kerouac describes. Some use various forms of preferential voting, where the candidates with the lowest number of first preferences is knocked out and the second preferences of their voters are then counted and added in. In the UK, at local elections (London Mayor) we have that sort of second preference vote. For the London Assembly members we have something like the German system of constituency members elected by first-past-the-post, plus a smaller number of members off party lists to make the total a bit more proportional. At local council level, we have wards electing two or three councillors by first-past-the-post, where you can distribute your votes between candidates of different parties as you choose. In Ireland, they have constituencies of 3, 4 or I think sometimes 5 members. You rank as many candidates as you like, and they go through several rounds of counting to redistribute the lower preferences of votes for losing candidates and of the surplus votes of candidates who get more first preferences than are needed for election. In Australia it's even more complicated. My blog | My photos | My video clips | My Librivox recordings"too literate to be spam"
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Post by bjd on Nov 16, 2018 6:03:14 GMT
That kind of preferential voting is used in France for setting up certain commissions in academic life (hiring committees for example). It would be good in regular elections, but of course it implies a much greater knowledge and interest in politics than is currently the case in many countries.
Getting past the protest vote mentality and having informed voters is a huge obstacle.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 16, 2018 6:20:11 GMT
Thank you, Patrick & Bjd. Since I'd read about preferential voting on this thread, I was most interested to see reference to ranked voting in the news story I linked above. I just looked up ranked voting & it's far more prevalent in the US than I would have guessed: www.fairvote.org/rcv_in_us_elections
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Post by kerouac2 on Nov 19, 2018 5:31:43 GMT
President Macron goes to Belgium just about every week, although it is almost always officially to the European Commission. But today and tomorrow, he is being welcomed by King Philippe in the first state visit in something like 50 years. Time to start spending some of the Belgian taxpayer money!
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Post by amboseli on Nov 19, 2018 11:37:58 GMT
Time to start spending some of the Belgian taxpayer money! Oh well, if our taxpayer money isn't being spent on Macron, it's being spent on other useless events. Trust me.
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Post by kerouac2 on Nov 19, 2018 12:05:32 GMT
Actually, the last state visit was by President Pompidou in 1971, so Belgium got off easy compared to some of the countries to which each new French president made a state visit.
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Post by amboseli on Nov 19, 2018 19:11:43 GMT
That's true. But these ceremonial visits cost an awful lot of money and do not contribute to solving world problems.
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Post by kerouac2 on Nov 19, 2018 19:50:05 GMT
Making sure that countries stay close friends has a certain importance.
This said, I did not even see one snippet of news about this visit on the evening news in France.
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Post by amboseli on Nov 20, 2018 7:23:17 GMT
Oh, but Macron and our prime minister Charles Michel are known to be close friends, as are their wives. Meeting the king and queen is of far less importance and purely protocol. Of course it was covered in the news on Belgian television, but there was more interest for the riots in France (and in Belgium).
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Post by kerouac2 on Nov 20, 2018 7:59:31 GMT
The morning news took an interest in the creation of Louvain-la-Neuve in the 1970's. They made it sound like Flemish of Leuven drove the French speakers out with torches and pitchforks.
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