Right wing nationalist democracies

[kerouac2]

We all know that there are plenty of dictatorships in the world, some relatively mild ones and also quite a few horrible ones.

However, today's newspaper took inventory of the democratic countries of the world where the citizens have elected right wing nationalist leaders to power.  Naturally, the level of nationalism and xenophobia is open to debate, but here is the list of countries where the right wing nationalist faction has complete power or at least a very strong majority:

Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Russia, Italy, Denmark, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Turkey, India, Philippines, United States, Israel... and perhaps Brazil tomorrow

There is a second list of countries where the right wing nationalists are part of the government coalition:

Switzerland, Austria, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Finland

The third list contains countries where the nationalist far right is a real problem:

France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Lithuania, Latvia

As far as western Europe is concerned, there are not too many countries left without a major problem concerning the far right:

United Kingdom, Ireland, Luxembourg, Spain, Portugal, Montenegro, Estonia

On the other hand, most of Latin America is doing quite well, at least in the electoral department, as are places like Tunisia and Morocco.   Probably best not to talk about corruption in some of these places.  When one takes into consideration the paucity of democratic countries in the world, this does not bode well in my book.

[bixaorellana]

Wonder how long it's going to be before the USA makes that list.

[kerouac2]

Oct 28, 2018 0:45:12 GMT bixaorellana said:

Wonder how long it's going to be before the USA makes that list.

The United States is on the list.

[bjd]

That is depressing. I wonder if there isn't a pendulum movement in history, where the general mood swings right and then left. Perhaps the 1930s was a rightward swing, then post-WW2, when many countries slowly put in place social-democratic policies, was a leftward one.

Huckle, I don't know that you can blame the Clintons for moving to the centre/right in order to get votes. The USA has never been known for really liberal policies on a national level, given the national myth of independence and self-reliance.

[bixaorellana]

Good grief. I looked right at it, but I guess at heart I did not want to see it. Thanks, Kerouac. (I guess )

Interesting point, Huckle, although I would not say that Bill Clinton ran as a centrist for his first term. My memory may be wrong about that, but I only remember being disappointed and frustrated as he got further into his presidency. Even so, he wasn't a Republican.

And Bjd's summation of nation politically is awfully accurate. There has never been a candidate admittedly willing to be truly liberal. Certainly Sanders came close, but the DNC took care of that hope.

[questa]

I have heard that even the Oz Right is further Left than US Left. Is this unlikely?

[kerouac2]

I'm sure that is quite true. The classic French right is farther left than the American left, too.

[bixaorellana]

Huckle, I see what you mean about the et al & using the Clintons. I'm less sure what you mean about adding the "new demographic" to the Democratic base.

Re: the quote by Montanelli -- if you're on facebook you might have seen this recently:
                                           

[lagatta]

Bernie Sanders and the rise of (US)American social democracy: theweek.com/articles/726093/bernie-sanders-rise-american-social-democracy

But the movement faces great odds, including the DNC a much as the GOP.

There are also countries that are authoritarian but have some degree of actual democracy, such as Iran. And despite many restrictions, women are far better off there than in Saudi Arabia.

I'm very concerned about Bolsonaro, as electoral democracy is on a very weak and tenuous foundation in Brazil.

[kerouac2]

Yes, democracy in Brazil is only 30 years old, which is nothing.

[lagatta]

Do people there have (negative) feelings about Spanish as so many of them are unilingual?

I'm impressed that the Haitian-origin people (mostly) got their language on the ballot as well.

I didn't even know that two (utterly innocent) Black people of a certain age were murdered by a white supremacist who failed in his attempt to burst into a historically Black church in Kentucky; presumably with murderous intent, the same weekend as the pipe bomb guy and the Synagogue murderer were arrested:

www.cnn.com/2018/10/28/us/72-hours-of-hate-in-america/index.html

[bjd]

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Western powers, in particular the USA, were upset about countries falling to communism like dominoes. No such worries being expressed these days about right-wing governments appearing all over the place.

I realize that all the polls had forecast a victory for Bolsonaro, but it's still depressing.

[kerouac2]

What depresses me is that people vote in both directions -- right or left -- thinking that their candidate is going to solve all of their problems in less than a year when it takes at least ten years to make progress on so many of the important issues (ecology, energy, retirement benefits, education...). Frankly, I can't think of a single "problem" that can be solved in under a year other than laws about capital punishment, abortion, marriage equality and a few other items that are rarely in the top five on the list of people feeling desperate. Then they turn against the person they just elected and vote in the other direction as soon as possible. These pendulum swings are becoming more and more annoying.

[bjd]

I agree with you. When I was flying between Montreal and Toronto a couple of weeks ago, I talked to the woman beside me. She was Brazilian and had emigrated to Canada 12 years before. She said that one of the big problems in Brazil (and elsewhere obviously) is that voters are looking for a messiah who is going to solve all the country's problems right away. After voting for Lula and being disappointed by corruption scandals, they turn to Bolsonero thinking that he will solve things.

She was horrified by the idea of Bolsonero getting in but figured that he would anyway.

[lagatta]

I have two Brazilian friends in Paris who fled the dictatorship long ago. One lost her husband; not clear on the exact story but he was a victim of the regime.

The other has had an academic career; he is very upset about this development, perhaps more in enabling violence by armed élites than actual policies.

[whatagain]

I would not call Russia and turkey democracies.
A good feel for a democratic country is the number of journalists in prison. Where both these countries score pretty well
Whaddabout china ? Not a democracy probably but not worse than those two - of course we would have to define what is to be considered rught wing in a communist country.

[kerouac2]

Oct 29, 2018 13:04:33 GMT whatagain said:

I would not call Russia and turkey democracies.

I think the list is about countries that have free elections. And of course if you have a free election, you can choose to elect total bastards.

[onlyMark]

Would someone take a moment to explain the following for me so I can follow what is being said a little better -

RWND
DNC
GOP
SoFla

Thanks.

[kerouac2]

On a lighter note, Georgia also had a presidential election yesterday, and the results of the first round are a bit surprising. Salomé Zourabichvili arrived in 1st place with 38.64% of the vote, just ahead of Grigol Vachadzé with 37.74%. This was considered to be a very positive result for a fledgling democracy, currently controlled by an unpopular billionaire who supports Vachadzé.

Now what is a bit interesting and different is that Salomé Zourabichvili was born and raised in France by Georgian parents who fled the Bolcheviks in 1922. She was named French ambassador to Georgia in 2003 and in 2004 she was named Georgian minister of foreign affairs. She didn't last long because she was removed by angry nationalists. Anyway, she then renounced her French citizenship to be eligible to run for president and she has a pretty fair chance of being elected, some time before December 2nd.

[bjd]

Oct 29, 2018 13:46:51 GMT kerouac2 said:

Oct 29, 2018 13:04:33 GMT whatagain said:

I would not call Russia and turkey democracies.

I think the list is about countries that have free elections. And of course if you have a free election, you can choose to elect total bastards.

I don't call elections "free" if some candidates are not allowed to run or are kept in prison for their political opinions. Both Russia and Turkey qualify here.

[bixaorellana]

That news from Georgia is not just a lighter note, but a ray of hope in today's political climate.

Oct 29, 2018 6:51:14 GMT bjd said:

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Western powers, in particular the USA, were upset about countries falling to communism like dominoes. No such worries being expressed these days about right-wing governments appearing all over the place.

Perhaps that's because the US used the "threat of communism"as an excuse to push through or prop up right-wing governments in different places around the globe.

Oct 29, 2018 7:12:39 GMT kerouac2 said:

What depresses me is that people vote in both directions -- right or left -- thinking that their candidate is going to solve all of their problems in less than a year

Oct 29, 2018 9:32:43 GMT bjd said:

one of the big problems in Brazil (and elsewhere obviously) is that voters are looking for a messiah who is going to solve all the country's problems right away.

Although of course I believe in democracy, both of you have pinpointed its major flaw -- the passivity of voters who do no research, even in this electronic age with free access to more news sources than ever. Why do research when it's easier to choose someone whose promises appeal to you or to vote because of muddy, party-driven dislike of an incumbent?

[kerouac2]

Oct 29, 2018 16:13:15 GMT bjd said:

I don't call elections "free" if some candidates are not allowed to run or are kept in prison for their political opinions. Both Russia and Turkey qualify here.

Not to mention Brazil with Lula. But nobody is forced to vote for the bad guys, even if the "best" guys are not on the ballot.

[onlyMark]

Ta.

[kerouac2]

I no longer have access to The Washington Post, which has chosen not to respect EU rules for the internet.

Today's protests in France are very interesting though, because people are demanding things that will harm them. They think that they should be exempted from ecological taxes which exist to protect them, and if ever these taxes were cancelled, they would pay even more for their health problems. But short sightedness is a very common human trait.

[kerouac2]

I also do not have access to the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune, among others.

[kerouac2]

(For those who don't know what this is all about, it just means clicking a box that says "I accept your cookies" instead of just having the cookies imposed on you automatically.)

[bixaorellana]

Nov 17, 2018 15:13:37 GMT kerouac2 said:

I no longer have access to The Washington Post, which has chosen not to respect EU rules for the internet.

What does that mean -- that it refuses to put the cookie warning on its pages?

Aside: for people who are annoyed by the "I accept your cookies" notice, there are extensions for all browsers that allow you to accept the cookies automatically without ever seeing the notices.

[kerouac2]

Nov 17, 2018 16:54:03 GMT bixaorellana said:

for people who are annoyed by the "I accept your cookies" notice, there are extensions for all browsers that allow you to accept the cookies automatically without ever seeing the

That is no longer the case for the EU. They must ask us for each website. As for the WP, I just do not have access to it and many other websites -- including NPR. The blockages are often surprising. The EU has many enemies.

[bixaorellana]

The extensions don't block the notices asking if you accept the cookies. Instead, they automatically accept the cookies for you so that you don't see the notices -- skipping the step of your having to click "accept" to make the notice go away.

I am surprised by those blockages! Except for sites that put up paywalls or that insist you register, I can see most everything.

[kerouac2]

So could I before the EU legislation went into effect in May 2018. That's when the battle lines were drawn.