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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 20, 2019 21:41:11 GMT
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Post by bjd on Sept 21, 2019 5:58:32 GMT
I saw on the news that there were only 10,000 demonstrators in Paris, many of whom were adults. Pathetic compared to Melbourne's 100,000. But there is more action today. I just hope the yellow vests don't participate/interfere as they are threatening to do.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 21, 2019 10:24:30 GMT
We had a much larger turnout in Montréal with a much smaller population than cities such as Paris or London, at the first youth strike in March. The weather was mild but there was still melting ice in places so not so comfy. Greta will be in Montréal on the 27th, which seems to have been the original date. I don't know why it has shifted in some places. I'll go, but doubt I'll stay for the whole thing as these youth marches are LONG, as we learnt from the 2012 student strikes.
Edited to add: I'm pleasantly surprised by Place de la Nation (often the traditional end-point for demonstrations) which was still a traffic circle the last time I was in Paris, for the World Social Forum.
We have a green, female mayor too and she gets the most vicious feedback. There have been studies that very "macho" type men see the environmental movement as a threat to their masculinity. (Not stereotyping about men). Including such actions as using a cloth shopping bag...
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 21, 2019 10:46:35 GMT
I’m afraid that electric cars etc are all well and good but the key is a much smaller world population but I don’t hear that discussed.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 21, 2019 12:51:24 GMT
That looks like more than 10,000 people! Even though you say you weren't inspired to demonstrate, I think everyone who shows up at such events and is quietly in support of the demonstrators' message is supporting the cause. The pictures & video show that it wasn't only kids in attendance. those kids are addicted to social media, one of the biggest destroyers of the climate. Parading my ignorance, but how so?
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Post by lagatta on Sept 21, 2019 13:13:23 GMT
The real problem in that case is the polluting sources of electricity fuelling the Internet. In Québec it is mostly hydro and other so-called "clean" sources, but of course we correspond with people from places where it is far from so.
As for population, I agree that humanity should restrict population growth, but the worst population as pollution is in WEALTHY countries where some people have large families with a long life expectancy. I can think of Saudi Arabia, and Christian fundies in the US and other countries (including Canada, but mostly on the Prairies, so a relatively small population of them). Thinking of the US presidential candidate who was a Mormon and had, what, five sons? Here in Mtl the Hassidim, an ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect (whom all my Jewish friends despise). All these fundie groups, whichever the religion, have huge SUVs, huge fridges and huge family groups travelling and consuming.
I certainly agree that for the well-being of women and society as a whole, poorer countries would also be better off promoting smaller families, but that requires education and what Rwandans call "capacitation" (empowerment) of women, and of course access to contraception. And some means of ensuring support for people in old age. In ecolo circles, it is a subject of debate but nobody wants to be accused of having an imperialist or racist outlook. Ironic that the rise of a women's movement (I don't mean western feminism) came in the aftermath of the Rwandan genocide.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 21, 2019 13:52:34 GMT
Parading my ignorance, but how so? There are a multitude of articles like this one
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 21, 2019 16:03:57 GMT
We need to follow the principles of Logan's Run.
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Post by mossie on Sept 21, 2019 16:06:49 GMT
Mick is right re the overpopulation of the planet. I have pontificated on this before, but bad as it is, we are short of major wars or natural disasters to trim the numbers. Say a 20% reduction, volunteers wanted!!!
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 21, 2019 16:15:59 GMT
We need to follow the principles of Logan's Run. Wouldn’t be too many left on this forum..,
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 21, 2019 20:11:00 GMT
I think none. Though I'd be with Jenny Agutter somewhere.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 21, 2019 22:45:50 GMT
Most of us would be too old. I agree with diminishing population growth, but we have to find humane means: if not, dictators will find inhumane ones.
Personally, I have no human children, but hardcore folk would say I could no longer have my little cat, as she is a carnivore (though she doesn't eat very much). I don't think I'd want to live then.
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Post by bjd on Sept 22, 2019 11:07:11 GMT
We went to the climate "demonstration" in Bayonne yesterday afternoon. A bridge was closed off to traffic, some bike associations were encouraging people to cycle, another association handed out coloured chalks to little kids so they could draw on the road. Only two police who manned the barricade against cars. Friendly atmosphere with only a couple of yellow vests handing out little pieces of paper to explain why they were still demonstrating.
However, in Paris, the black blocs (actually hard to tell who was who since yellow vests mostly left their neon vests at home) interrupted the peaceful, family-friendly demonstration and torched bus stops, broke windows and fought with the police who used tear gas.
I do find it rather pathetic that it's only in France that this happens.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 22, 2019 13:06:41 GMT
Perhaps the Yellow Vests, but Black Block types have crept up in several other countries. We had some here on May Days and other protests. Not only did they attack the cops, they attacked the trade union contingents. Some of which had some tough characters... Fortunately they don't seem to be around anymore. For a while afterwards they took part in a march against police violence - a violent march, of course. None of the actual people likely to be exposed to police violence showed up since they were avoiding violence, and possible deportation, in the case of immigrants.
At the same time, important not to give them undue publicity. They don't consider that breaking stuff means more pollution, as shop windows etc have to be replaced, not to mention burning things.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 22, 2019 14:00:29 GMT
I do find it rather pathetic that it's only in France that this happens. You might be a bit underinformed if that is what you think.
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Post by bjd on Sept 22, 2019 14:24:00 GMT
I'll admit that I am underinformed. All I do is listen to the radio and read newspaper websites. But I was comparing with the thousands who turned out in Berlin or Melbourne -- both of which seemed to take place without trouble. I realize too that "if it bleeds, it leads", but both the Guardian and NY Times had pictures from Paris showing burning and tear gas.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 22, 2019 14:31:50 GMT
Yes, unfortunately they have cropped up in several countries. But perhaps the news bjd reads and watches only covers their actions in France. That is the case for many if not most of us; only exceptional events from other places make the headlines. On the question of having no or fewer children: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/12/birthstrikers-meet-the-women-who-refuse-to-have-children-until-climate-change-endswww.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children Note that I am NOT telling or advising people what to do with their lives. And sometimes people with no children are more likely to spend money and climate harms on, er, travel and other polluting activities. Even though my air travel has been for studies and educational and social events (such as social forums and climate meetings, as an interpreter) it still pollutes. One of the most absurd occurrences in my life was a short flight from Brussels to Amsterdam, although there is a railway along the same path and given check-in, it takes no longer to take the short rail journey than the ridiculously short flight.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 22, 2019 14:50:52 GMT
What is a bit strange is that if one follows the French media, which are usually quick to overplay anything that happens, one will read that yesterday was relatively calm with just a few incidents which were quickly brought under control. The police were quite satisfied with the outcome and there were far fewer demonstrators than announced. But the international media honed in on every little fire that was lit on the pavement and the black bloc idiots who attacked a bank agency (unsuccessfully) in front oc a camera crew. I guess they find this exciting. "Is Paris Burning?"
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 22, 2019 14:59:16 GMT
The main problem for the yellow vests is that their very first issue was to be against the "eco-tax". Of course, now they are against just about anything they can think of in the usual "café du commerce" political spectrum, they are kind of screwed when they set a demonstration on the same day as a climate demonstration. All of the ecological experts have said in the last week or two that the eco-tax was absolutely necessary, but now the government has shelved it indefinitely due to the yellow vest protests. They tried to join the environmental demonstrators but are far from welcome, so there was absolutely no way for the demonstration to succeed yesterday. And of course the black bloc people just want to destroy anything that can be destroyed, but they are such a tiny minority that the police can still stop them.
The demonstration on Friday by the high school students was far more successful.
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Post by lugg on Sept 22, 2019 18:07:04 GMT
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Post by lugg on Sept 22, 2019 18:32:22 GMT
Great photos K2 - thank you
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Post by lagatta on Sept 23, 2019 4:44:58 GMT
I've been blocked from twitter as I told a violent climate crisis denier (who was insulting Greta and other youth) to fuck off. Frankly, that is not a threat in modern English But not much to do about it. Think she is a serious and connected fascist.
Her screen name is something like so cal valley girl. But she is vicious.
And no, I don't like Black Bloc types any more, but they won't kill me.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 23, 2019 6:20:56 GMT
Youth activism started long before most of us remember. While Greta Thunberg of Sweden is the current star, Canadian Severn Cullis-Suzuki made a major speech in 1992 at the Rio climate conference when she was 12. She made the whole world listen for a grand total of 5 minutes.
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Post by bjd on Sept 23, 2019 8:41:59 GMT
Yes, it's hard to remember that there was a big climate conference in 1992. I admire these young people, girls particularly, who have enough guts and composure to speak in public and hold their own in difficult situations.
It's even worse now for Greta Thunberg, with social media and right-wing commentators insulting her.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 23, 2019 12:18:12 GMT
One of the newspapers here pointed out that girls are the climate leaders just about everywhere. The boys follow them because... they are boys following girls, as usual.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 23, 2019 12:26:58 GMT
I hope someone here has some advice about what I can do about Twitter. I'm not a great fan of it; for me it is basically a tool.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 23, 2019 12:34:53 GMT
I hope someone here has some advice about what I can do about Twitter. I'm not a great fan of it; for me it is basically a tool. I know just about nothing about Twitter and rarely use it. Have you tried their help page?
help.twitter.com/en
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Post by lagatta on Sept 23, 2019 13:32:55 GMT
Yes. Merci bien.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 23, 2019 15:09:29 GMT
I figured that she might be related to geneticist and environmentalist David Suzuki. She's his daughter. He was born in 1936, so old enough to be grand-dad. Mother was a prof at Harvard, now a writer. Her younger sister is also a marine biologist and environmentalist. Severn (and sis) has that beauté du métis, a special glow among some biracial (or more) people.
David Suzuki is among the known people I've interpreted. I don't interpret much any more as I find it too stressful, and I'm a bit deaf in one ear. It does pay much better than translating or copy/sub-editing.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 23, 2019 18:29:18 GMT
Well ~ this thread has educated me in ways I never expected! It's a wonderful picture thread showing a worthy activity, but the comments from all of you have opened other windows. I was shocked by Bjd's comment re: only in Paris, but didn't know about the black blocs, thinking that destructiveness in other demonstrations was from rogue elements of the yellow vests. And then LaGatta pointed out that they exist in other countries, including Canada. It's frustrating, because I read lots of news every day from a variety of sources, but guess I sometimes come away with lots of trees but no forest.
I remember someone on the forum -- Auntie Annie? -- posted about the girl "who stopped the world for five minutes" years ago. Honestly, at that time I was probably thinking yeah, yeah, yeah, but more and more young people are speaking up in focused and articulate ways about they world that is going to be theirs very soon.
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