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Post by onlyMark on Oct 12, 2020 18:23:10 GMT
Tod, we would certainly consider leaving money for any grandchildren for their education (none yet anyway) - but that would mean for University education as in Germany State schools are good, though also as University courses tend to be free as well, the money could be spent on accommodation whilst learning so that he/she wouldn't have to get part time jobs like many students have to. My children have had all the advantages we can/could give them, especially compared with if they hadn't been adopted and stayed in the rough side of Colombia where they were born, and we know they would just fritter it away. We may give them a thousand or two as a present to chuck away on meaningless things like a new phone or something, but any major amounts like the house sale, are going to us.
They've been pampered for many years, we've promised them if they went to college we buy them a car, help them out etc etc, but nothing was enough motivation/bribes for them to do so. Once they became old enough to understand we won't be the Bank of Mum and Dad for them forever and there is a time limit on our financial legs up and support, we made it clear to them they won't be living at home sponging off us until we die and leave them an inheritance to continue a life of Riley - we felt we would dedicate twenty years or so to building foundations for them (that runs out in three years time) but, without a doubt, the situation changes then so they will have to exist further on their own merits.
As it stands now, it is becoming highly likely that even now, one daughter may have to come and live with us in Bosnia. Bear in mind Mrs M has a Doctorate in Psychology and by now has run through every technique she or I know, over the years, to get them to be proactive in their living circumstances. Dropping a load of money on them isn't the answer either now or in the future for their long term life. I may sound harsh, but we haven't hidden these things, it won't come as surprise to them, they know full well they will get nothing (virtually) when we have both sailed off to Valhalla or Fólkvangr. We have worked hard to steer them through the bureaucracy of life, advised, offered motivations both good, bad and in between to get them to build on what they have, we've (me, to be honest) home schooled them several times for a year to get them back to a decent level and the tide is turning in that we are genuinely wondering if in fact we did to much and they just began to rely on us to pull them out of the shit they may have gotten themselves in to.
Further to that, when we both cast back to our formative years, also our friends, (we don't say to our kids "when I was your age") but when we look back we can only begin to think we actually made life too easy for them. Even the ultimatum of no, you are now twenty years old, you aren't coming back to live with us if you decide to leave before the end like you've done twice before because it is "too hard", so it's in your best interests to finish the course you are doing and use the qualification from that to start to stand on your on two feet (e.g. get a job you stick to). So what happens? They both leave and stay with friends who'll put them up....... and so on..... I think I've gone on enough so I'll stop now, but all I can say is if they didn't need the money when we pop off, then we'd likely give it to them, but if they do because they've cruised through life depending on others, then no, they can whistle for it.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 12, 2020 18:42:30 GMT
I can definitely feel your pain. I have known quite a few people whose children did not turn out as they had hoped (and others who did, after they had given up hope). It must be even more difficult now to figure out the right thing to do as the world becomes more cruel and dangerous. Most of us probably feel that we had (and have) it easy compared to the challenges facing new generations.
Since I don't have luxurious tastes, there is no way that I will spend all of my money before I die. It doesn't look like my nephews or grand nephews and niece will require any assistance (I have never even met them), so I will probably have to look for an appropriate charity when the time comes if I have enough warning.
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Post by Kimby on Oct 12, 2020 19:06:17 GMT
Look for those charities, now, K2 and mention them in your will. Be sure to leave a token amount “and nothing more” to your nieces and nephews (and brother if he outlives you), so that none of them can protest not getting “their” inheritance.
Do it before you’re incapacitated.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 12, 2020 19:48:03 GMT
French inheritance laws ensure that no family member can be cut out of a minimum share of inheritance. Nobody can be disowned (and yes, there are plenty of people who would like this to be changed).
If I die without a will, since the parents are dead, my brother would receive 100%. If my brother dies before me, my two nephews would each receive 50%. And so on. If I have a testament, there is still a percentage reserved for the nearest blood relative(s). I'm not sure what it is.
So yes, I should have a will validated before I kick the bucket if I want to have a choice where at least part of my money goes.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 12, 2020 20:00:25 GMT
I ought to continue the explanation a little bit.
If you have one child, the child MUST receive at least 50% of the inheritance (but you can give all of it if you want). If you have two children, they each get a minimum of 33%. If you have 3 children, each one must receive at least 25%. This of course leaves room for preference among the children since the remaining share can be distributed at will. Past a certain age (I don't know what age), parents cannot even sell their home without the permission of the children to make sure that nobody gets screwed.
Basically, there is often still as much possible bad blood concerning inheritances as in systems that allow total freedom. But, even though some children certainly deserve it, I think it is probably still a better idea to ensure that nobody in direct lineage can be totally disinherited.
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Post by questa on Oct 13, 2020 0:31:39 GMT
Owing to circumstances, I had to make a will as soon as I turned 21 years old.As I crossed the road from the solicitors' office a motor bike roared past, missing me by centimetres. The thought shot through my mind,"That could have killed me", instantly followed by"It's OK, I've made my Will" I have been amazed how so many adults have not made wills, even those into their 60s.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 13, 2020 3:14:16 GMT
when we both cast back to our formative years, also our friends, (we don't say to our kids "when I was your age") but when we look back we can only begin to think we actually made life too easy for them. Mark, from everything you have written here over the years, I don't believe you and Mrs.M can blame yourselves. To a degree, you can't blame the kids, either. The clue is in what you say about your formative years and your friends back then. Even though you are at least a decade younger than I, our age groups are kind of stuck in the past when it comes to assimilating the intensity and pervasiveness of consumer culture in the time in which your children grew up and really, for at least twenty years before they were even born. Advertising relentlessly suggests that there is more and better stuff to be had and that we're supposed to have all of it. Remember that your children have probably never seen you or their mother struggling for money. They look around and you have houses and cars and go traveling and there was always enough of everything at home and to bail them out when needed. They are probably living a nice myth that says that one day they will be grown-ups and when that happens, everything will magically fall into nice grown-up place. I'm basing this assumption on young people in my own family and the fact that I used to be a young person. I think the big difference, though, between when we were that young and "the young people of today", is that even though we knew we'be be turned into adults one day, we never expected to have everything while we were still young -- we had some idea that the grown-ups had worked and accumulated to get what they had. And the magic credit card wands had not completely taken over when we were teenagers, making it quite clear that you couldn't have stuff instantly just because you wanted it.
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Post by onlyMark on Oct 13, 2020 3:42:58 GMT
True words Bixa. I think that is very accurate.
Funnily enough what also prompted this was yesterday I drive four hours to bring one daughter to where we are because she'd had an arguement with her boyfriend and was feeling bad about the situation but couldn't talk to us over the phone because yet again (fifth time) she'd put her phone in her back pocket and sat on it breaking the screen. Mrs M also took the opportunity to ask about her (work/education) plans and was met with blank looks. Subsequently Mrs M told me she has now more or less officially, given up trying to steer them in the right direction.
We are aware our nomadic lifestyle would influence their education - but between the ages of eight and sixteen they moved schools only once and was why we spent longer than we wanted each time in Egypt and Jordan, to give some stability. Not an unusual set of circumstances for someone to move schools once in eight years. But, as Mrs M's mother said when we bemoaned their lack of application and motivation, "Yes, but they are very pretty and that will help them."
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Post by questa on Oct 13, 2020 6:45:53 GMT
Might be an advantage if they chose to work in the sex industry, but not a pre-request for anything in this day and age.!
My kids and I had very little money during their school years. #1 wanted a bike so started collecting drink cans with refundable deposits. Attended sporting events and had his $200 in about 12 months. #2 was booked on a 10 day school camp. He was 14 and a charming lad. The local Avon cosmetic rep resigned and he took over the circuit. Learnt a lot of business skills and made it to camp.
Both worked from 15 years up for award wages. They still know the value of earning and taking care of possessions. Please, Mark, cut this financial umbilical cord and let hem learn about how the world works. It really doesn't do them any favours, just stunts their capacity to survive in a commercial world. You may not be there for them, one day. .
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Post by bjd on Oct 13, 2020 6:52:40 GMT
Must be a Slovenian thing to rely on your looks to get ahead! Thinking of Mrs Trump, of course.
I think all parents over the centuries have tried to do what they could for their kids, but indeed, nowadays it's perhaps more difficult when they are tempted to want and get everything immediately. It's hard to know whether things will continue as they are, whether the effects of climate change will bring about a change in mentality. After all, it's young people who are striking for climate change -- not the generation with SUVs.
I am lucky in that my children are adults and have turned out to be good people. But I do worry about the future for my grandchildren -- the oldest is 8 and who knows what is in store for them. But then again, I have been rereading the letters my mother wrote to me when I moved to France and over the subsequent years, and she was always worried about what the future would bring for her granchildren. Those granchildren who are now smart, responsible adults.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 13, 2020 11:02:19 GMT
I think just about all of our grandparents asked us if we had enough to eat when they would see us. Clearly this was a major problem when they were young.
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Post by bjd on Oct 13, 2020 11:41:11 GMT
I think just about all of our grandparents asked us if we had enough to eat when they would see us. Clearly this was a major problem when they were young. My grandmother, who lived with us when I was young, used to be the one who took away my plate after my parents told me to finish everything and I was left at the table by myself. She would come in and sneak away the food I didn't want -- which was quite a lot in those days because I was a picky eater.
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Post by tod2 on Oct 13, 2020 12:51:55 GMT
Aiy- Yai Mark. Thank you for your frank and revealing situation regarding the girls. I agree completely with your decision. Lets hope they land rich husbands who will keep them in the manner to which they have been accustomed. You are not alone in your quandry regarding their future without relying on you. So many times children have become reliant on "The bank of mom/dad" well into their adult lives. Our son took his sweet time getting to grips with the real world of those who work hard for their money. Many sleepless nights, many disappointments and lots of frustration. He ended up with a failed marriage and his boys were very sad at the break-up but he is a wonderful father and was with them very often even when it was not his "turn". As he grew older and more mature his outlook on life changed dramatically. No longer was the latest model car important. No longer was flying off to Dubai with Investment Brokers an appeal to him. I think he has realised that earning bucks by the sweat of one's own brow, is a very satisfying feeling and one of pride. Yes, he was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth, and there is no doubt being able to send him to very prestigious schools has stood him in good stead. He is a wonderful son and father and we are relieved it turned out all good in the end.
Just a thought about leaving money to children who may be under the age of 30 at the time of your death. That's what a Trust Deed is for. The money is theirs but managed by professional people in their best interests until such time as the Trust ends. I am in the process of changing my Will as two people I have included will be in no fit state to manage the lump some and have many "hangers on" who will fritter it away in minutes. I need to rethink a lot of things while I'm still able.
Kerouac - I don't like the French control over your money after your death. I'm sure many wealthy people will object to their money going to a useless or hated relative.
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Post by lagatta on Oct 13, 2020 13:55:02 GMT
As least my violent slightly older brother predeceased me. No, I'm not happy that he died, but the thought of what little assets I have would go to someone who used me as a punching bag is beyond reason.
Mark, I doubt very much that your children will need a car if studying in Germany. Yes, in many parts of the US or in Alberta, but Germany has excellent public transport and is very cycling-friendly.
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Post by Kimby on Oct 13, 2020 14:17:40 GMT
I am glad I’m not a parent, because I think I wouldn’t be very good at helping children to launch as independent adults, because I myself never really did.
I’m sure that being rather pretty as a young woman smoothed my way to good grades and being given the benefit of the doubt along the way.
Though I was not deliberate in landing a good provider as a husband, Mr. Kimby has, because of his career choices, allowed us a lifestyle my personal lack of ambition could never approach.
Through 4 years of college and graduate studies at three universities, I never really found my passion. And the logistical demands of Mr Kimby’s chosen profession would have disrupted any career course I had imagined for myself. (Diagnostic radiologists are not in much demand at the national parks where I had envisioned working as a park naturalist!).
So I’ve never really had to learn “to adult”. How would I teach kids to adult?
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Post by onlyMark on Oct 13, 2020 14:34:43 GMT
Lagatta, you are right, they wouldn't need a car. The thought was more that they can have a luxury they wouldn't spend their money on akin to not getting socks at Christmas but something you'd like but unnecessary. Besides, it's me that is who would think of the car. If I didn't have one, no matter how good public transport is, I'd be having panic attacks and feel locked up.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 13, 2020 15:13:34 GMT
Ha ha, I have not owned a car at any time during my entire life because I consider the upkeep and insurance and even such things as parking to be an unendurable burden in any place that I have lived.
Of course I rent cars from time to time and even then they are a source of worry, but of course also a source of freedom.
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Post by mossie on Oct 13, 2020 18:36:34 GMT
I find being without a car to be a real drag. There are places I want to visit which I can't, and of course I have to rely on the goodness of others to get my main shopping done. But I still think I did the right thing in giving up, which was entirely my decision and there is the financial aspect, even though I generally splash out for a taxi when returning from my trips down town.
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Post by lugg on Oct 13, 2020 19:03:29 GMT
Going back a little ...Questa , thank you for the up-date - I hope you feel more organised and settled now and suspect you are.
... I am one of those people who are too old not to have yet made a will ; I have thought about it so often but then life gets in the way. Thanks for the kick up the butt. I do have some things in place but not robust enough.
Such a thought provoking thread - just like life.
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Post by tod2 on Oct 14, 2020 12:20:49 GMT
Lugg, don't think of it as your final word carved in stone. Rather imagine it is a letter you are writing to someone you love. You want them to be free of thinking "Oh how I wish Lugg had done the deciding about this beautiful furniture, jewellery, car, or her house." Winding up a loved ones estate is difficult enough to endure, but when it comes to money, property and possessions, you must make your wishes known loud and clear. So make the whole thing very simple. When people start leaving a prized vase to a sister, a diamond brooch to a cousin, or a rocking chair to an uncle…..you get what I'm saying, that is a complicated Will. Our financial advisor together with our accountants drafted my late mother's Will, she left a lump some of money to me with the list of grandchildren and the amount to be given to them. They all got the same amount of money. I simply transferred it to their bank account. I'm talking in a few thousand pounds not hundreds of thousands. This is what simplifies a Will instead of line after line of who gets what. Now, as my brother was deceased his share went to his two children but they also got the amount all the other grandchildren received.
Gosh , I hope you grab the bull by the horns and pick up the phone and make an appointment with either your bank, or attorney or accountant. Draft something in advance so you don't spend time dithering. That does not mean you have to rush, it means you have thought about things. Best of luck, you know you can do it.
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Post by mossie on Oct 17, 2020 14:21:42 GMT
Earlier I posted one of my casual snaps taken this morning of chestnuts on a local path. Writing the caption got me thinking, bad sign. I come from a generation very far removed from today, the Bible may say our life span is three score years and ten, but I am well past that. Children now seem to have far less freedom than we did, even though there was a war on we could roam the fields and woods, light fires and roast and eat chestnuts and other things well out of sight of censorious adults. We drank from the local stream where the farmers had watered their cattle and presumably built up immunities which are lacking now.
That's enough rambling on like the old fool that I am, but I do think my generation has turned out as more rounded and sensible.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 17, 2020 15:17:41 GMT
Even though I am not as old as you, I regret the same losses, Mossie.
One thing in the travel category that disturbs me, though, is that I see on travel forums all the time people asking about going to a hotel or travelling independently before the age of 18. They are told "no way" you need written documents from your parents, you can't go to a hotel, etc.
I travelled everywhere in Europe independently when I was 17 and never experienced a single problem in any country, even though in those days you had to show your passport just about everywhere, so absolutely everybody could see my age. I don't know if the "control" situation has changed dramatically or if people have just gone crazy since I was young. I do know that my parents were amazingly progressive to allow me to take such a trip for 3 months long before the days of the internet. I had no way to keep in contact with them other than postcards, and they had no way to contact me, since my travel plans changed every day.
What was really odd was 3 years later when I made my definitive move to Europe, my parents had to provide written permission for me to take the SS Michelangelo from New York to Cannes because I had not reached the Italian age of majority at the time -- 21.
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Post by questa on Oct 18, 2020 1:50:27 GMT
Mossie...same here. I should be dead 50 times over from just the risks of doing all the things that kids did...specially as I was 'one of the boys' and not girly at all.
One big difference is that we didn't have the opportunities to get into strife that people have nowadays. Getting your first car opens up a world of freedom to explore and get lost, break down, get robbed, get bogged for 2 days, have crashes, meet interesting people and learn some "Bush" repairs.
Then on to the International stuff...getting lost becomes so frequent I factor it into my activities. Foreign bacteria attack, but I am immunised against everything the yellow card can hold.
I go many places and fall in love with an island. I set out to get a meal and wind up with a restaurant, and more experiences.
Without a car your world starts to get small again. I have hardly used mine for a year but it sits there if I need it. I am learning to live like a kid again and look for small adventures.
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Post by whatagain on Oct 19, 2020 9:59:03 GMT
Living in a civilised country i don't even need to write a will. In the absence of a will, everything we own and also owe goes to our children in equal parts. In a will you can diminish thecpart of one child to a minimum but are not allowed to leave nothing. It all suits us fine, but the fact is now that children don't inherit from their parents but from their grandparents. Both my wife and i are well into our 50 a d have both a surviving parent in good health. So in the event they die in 5-10 years, we will be in our early 60, all debts paid. Our children will be 25 around so they would start looking, as good Belgians do, for a house. Inheritance of my parents would go there, as we will not need money, we got some when we bought our own house... And i dont care if my daughters squander their money or not it will be their money, not mine. So i clearly expect to invest in my daughter's businesses if they need money and we clearly would put them in an apartment we own if they are low on cash. And they know it. When they need money we give them and will give them money. That is what we feel in our heart. What good would my money be to me if i dont help my children in need. Whatever the cause. Like when we create a hole of 50 k when traveling at every opportunity with our son (and daughters) during his chemos. And my wife nearly stopping work. Best money ever spent. But we will not sell the Porsche... 🤣🤣
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Post by bjd on Oct 19, 2020 11:15:17 GMT
I feel rather like you, Whatagain. No will made. We have given money to our kids when they needed it -- to help with a down payment on a house, or to pay for studies or travel. If I can, I prefer to give it to them when they need it, not to have to wait until we die and they will already be well into middle age.
As for specific things for specific people -- I'm not a collector of anything, so try not to accumulate "stuff", even though it does build up over the years. My worry is how they will deal with getting rid of what they don't want.
And as Kerouac mentioned above somewhere, you cannot disinherit your children in France. There is a legal construct to it all, and there is no way anything goes to some distant cousin or the local cat home.
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Post by mossie on Oct 22, 2020 7:09:43 GMT
Did a really stupid thing yesterday. I keep my keys on a fob thing and when undressing last night the fob was missing from my trouser pocket where it has ALWAYS lived. So, panic, last time I used the front door key was when I got back from my late afternoon walk and I remembered I had been distracted talking to a neighbour. So I shot down stairs, opened the front door, great relief, there was the fob swinging off the key still in the doorlock.
Getting time for the men in white coats to take me away, at least it will be a distraction from this old boy in a long black coat who keeps following me around. It is that big scythe slung over his shoulder that I don't like the look of.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 22, 2020 7:48:25 GMT
You're still several paces ahead of him mossie....
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Post by questa on Oct 22, 2020 8:16:30 GMT
G'Day Mick...Keeping well I hope? RM Williams is back in Aussie hands and all is right in the world. Billionaire, "Twiggy" Forest bought Euro interests out and another Matilda comes waltzing home again.
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Post by mickthecactus on Oct 22, 2020 8:34:01 GMT
Indeed! My daughter gave me the news yesterday. Excellent!
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Post by tod2 on Oct 22, 2020 17:02:53 GMT
Mossie….we have a South African saying "Moenie panik nie"….translated means 'Don't Panic don't'! mr.P and I are right on the lip of forgetfulness but what keeps us checking is our security. Not saying we would have had intruders after you forgot your keys, because we go out shopping with our house doors all wide open-----but, we have a garden man and maybe two or three other workmen around, but, even so I have often left my house totally spread-eagle-wide. Of course nightfall is something totally different.
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