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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 4:28:18 GMT
As promised in my photo report on Venice, the many pictures I took of glorious St. Mark's basilica and its piazza are featured here separately. The word stunning is often used to describe something exceptionally beautiful and I finally experienced what it really means, as I was stunned, literally stopped in my tracks, when I beheld St. Mark's. Images must conform in size to the format of this forum, but some of the features on the basilica bear closer inspection. Thus I offer the link to the Flickr album holding the pictures, where you can click on "original size" in order to see every tessera and each delicately wrought stone leaf atop a column, if you wish: www.flickr.com/gp/17499332@N00/o42vzvThe original church was built in the mid 800s to house the body of St. Mark, stolen from Egypt to enhance the prestige of Venice, already a mighty shipping empire. It burnt, was replaced, burned again in 976 and restored two years later. The present ground plan dates from @1063 and is derived from the Church of the Apostles at Constantinople. In 1075 the Doge passed a law requiring all returning ships to bring back something precious to decorate the basilica. Many of the precious items are plunder from Venice's rivals, leading Rick Steves to refer to the ultimate style as “Early Ransack". By 1105 the basic structure, a mixture of Italian and Byzantine features, was in place. The succeeding centuries, especially the period after the Venetian-led conquest of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade of 1204 and the fourteenth century, all contributed to its adornment, with many elements being spolia brought in from ancient or Byzantine buildings, such as mosaics, columns, capitals, or friezes. The Venetian sculptors of other capitals and friezes copied the Byzantine style so effectively that some of their work can only be distinguished with difficulty. Gradually, the exterior brickwork became covered with marble cladding and carvings, some much older than the building itself, such as the statue of the Four Tetrarchs. Wikipedia
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 4:41:01 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 5:10:00 GMT
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Post by mossie on Oct 3, 2019 7:07:12 GMT
They really knew how to do fancy decoration in those days, if only modern architects and builders had the same devotion to god and not to money.
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Post by questa on Oct 3, 2019 8:32:51 GMT
Stunning is the right word. Amazing how the architects, sculptors, painters etc applied their skills to the limit but it all seems to come together...not as cluttered as some other places. There must have been a lot of trade and inspiration between Venice and Constantinople as there is similarity in some places.
Your pictures do it all justice, Bixa. How you get such great pics without someone's head or umbrella in them. You see so much more than I would and compose it so well.
More, more!
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Post by lagatta on Oct 3, 2019 12:04:17 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 3, 2019 14:21:58 GMT
The brick tower is really in stark contrast to all the rest. I wonder if the earlier towers blended in with the church or not.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Oct 3, 2019 17:13:51 GMT
Exquisite detail Bixa. So much to see
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Post by lugg on Oct 3, 2019 17:54:40 GMT
Just beautiful, love how you have followed up some of the photos with a more detailed view. Off to follow the link - thank you
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 19:32:41 GMT
But Mossie, all those who worked on those enormously impressive buildings were funded by rulers intent on aggrandizing their own importance and the power of their city. LaGatta's link gives an idea of their political shrewdness and of the the interaction between two great powers. Questa, you commented on the "trade and inspiration between Venice and Constantinople". Indeed there was. The last paragraph in the OP and LaGatta's link give expanded information on that relationship. I greatly appreciate your saying that I do the church justice, as I feel it's so hard to capture its impact on a tiny human. Quite honestly, when I'd only seen pictures of it I felt it suffered in comparison to other famous but more soaring great cathedrals. Really, in pictures it can almost look squatty, compared to expectation. In person it has all the aesthetic and monumental impact its builders intended. Kerouac, the tower is as it has always been size-wise. Camera angles makes some of the buildings seem closer to each other than they actually are. In reality, the tower works and the church works, each in a distinct way without interfering with each other. For one thing, the piazza is so big that the tower doesn't seem monstrous by comparison. It has had a checkered past though: It was begun in the 10th century and completed in the 12th century, but its pointed roof and gilded pinnacle weren't added until the 15th century. On July 14, 1902, it collapsed into the piazza in a heap of rubble, smashing the Loggetta at its foot but causing no casualties. By 1912, it had been painstakingly rebuilt to its original 98.6-meter height ... sourceThank you so much, Cheery and Lugg, for making me feel my decision to include so many pictures and details was the right way to honor this gorgeous piazza and its buildings and setting.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 20:08:27 GMT
For the sake of narrative flow, I am repeating the last photo in the last picture post (reply #2) above. We are approaching the waterfront, with Jacopo Sansovino's Marciana Library on the right-hand side ~ We are now near the Molo, the quay fronting the lagoon, where we see two large granite columns carrying symbols of the two patron saints of Venice. The first is Saint Theodore, who was the patron of the city before St Mark, holding a spear and with a crocodile to represent the dragon which he was said to have slain. This is made up of parts of antique statues and is a copy (the original is kept in the Doge's Palace). The second ... column has a creature representing a winged lion — the Lion of Venice — which is the symbol of St Mark. This has a long history, probably starting as a winged lion-griffin on a monument to the god Sandon at Tarsus in Cilicia (Southern Turkey) about 300 BC. The columns are now thought to have been erected about 1268, when the water was closer and they would have been on the edge of the lagoon, framing the entry to the city from the sea. source
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Post by lagatta on Oct 3, 2019 21:50:29 GMT
That is of course why the tower looks so much younger than the rest of the aspects of the church; it was rebuilt, though it also figured in much older works. Think of all the things precious to townspeople that were rebuilt after wars, earthquakes, floods etc.
My course on the history of the Byzantine empire will always remind me of a similarly dark date here. My concentrations were around Italian history, migration history and the history of social movements, including the workers' movement. I had courses on subjects around the Mediterranean basin. But my graduate history exam in the Byzantine subject was on the 6th of December 1989 - the evening of the Polytechnique massacre when the kind of young man we'd now call an "incel" murdered 14 young women and seriously injured many more young students, women and men. People called me from several countries; like all grad students writing exams I was utterly stunned and responded "the exam wasn't THAT hard!" After, we returned to the university but everyone was in a very severe state of shock. The exam involved a battle that was several times more murderous, but that is alas pretty customary in history.
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Post by lagatta on Oct 3, 2019 21:55:04 GMT
Indeed. In no way did my post deny that.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 3, 2019 22:58:24 GMT
lagatta, I believe huckle may be referring to my use of the word "relationship" in the second paragraph of reply #9. It was not my intention to imply a friendly relationship. In fact, please note the final paragraph in the OP, which specifically mentions the fourth crusade and Venice's crucial role in it. Indeed, the paragraph immediately above that one alludes to Venice's habit of helping itself to the goodies of its rivals. Before proceeding further, I offer this plan of the piazza in the hope that it will help make sense of the order of my pictures ~ We are now standing with our backs to the lagoon, looking back across the piazzeta as we move again towards the church ~ Note the two red (okay, orange-y) columns in this picture. They mark the spot where a sentence of death was proclaimed & where the Doge would sit to observe the execution ~ We're back almost to the front of the basilica again ~ The view across from the picture above ~ And looking back toward the lagoon ~
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Post by lagatta on Oct 3, 2019 23:17:18 GMT
I love the lion of St. Mark holding the book. I've done many riffs on that with small, black housecats, especially for a late Venetian friend.
I would never use "relationship" only for something positive, and certainly didn't want to imply a constantly friendly relationship between those two maritime powers!
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2019 3:12:41 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2019 4:38:47 GMT
As I loitered on this side late one afternoon, just worshipping the graven images, I saw a couple going past a guard into a side door. When I asked the guard why, he said they were going to Mass, which had already started. I said I wanted to go, too. The camera makes it seem more lighted than it actually was. Inside were were few people, it was quite dark, and only the priest was speaking, making for a sublime experience in this huge space covered with over 8000 square meters of gilded mosaic from the 12th century on its vaults & cupolas ~
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Post by bjd on Oct 4, 2019 4:53:41 GMT
Not for the first time, I realize that I so much prefer those gilded, early mosaics to the later Renaissance cherubs. Maybe they should build a duplicate to stop the erosion of the basilica.
The last time I went to Venice was in 1984. I stood and listened to a guide explaining the church to a group. Already then there was worry that this splendid church, built mainly for the doge to worship in, was suffering from the weight of visitors, given that it is built on wooden piles, like everything else in the city.
In one of the outside pictures above, the bride trying to lift her dress and hurry after her groom (the guy in the neon blue suit?) does not bode well for the marriage.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2019 5:12:43 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 4, 2019 11:33:24 GMT
All of the architectural and sculptural details are exquisite, and I didn't even know that the inside of the church was golden.
But you know what? I have never been in love with the buildings framing the church on each side -- too massive, too clunky, and they kind of dwarf the church when you are on the far side of the piazza. Of course all of the little details on them are fine, but this is a case where less is more.
Your photographic skills are as impressive as ever, as is the fact that you got the sky and the pigeons to also cooperate most of the time.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2019 16:51:14 GMT
Kerouac, as I said in reply #9, what you see in photographs and what you see in real-life St. Mark's Square don't really match up. Believe it or not, the buildings framing the church actually seem sleek and rather delicate in situ -- the proportions work beautifully. I understand what you're saying, because without having seen it with my own eyes, I probably would have agreed with you. I hope this report makes people want to see it all for themselves, as so many reports on anyport have piqued my interest in places I might have otherwise dismissed. The first day I saw St. Mark's and walked sideways past its front, looking up and taking pictures, I bumped into another woman doing the same thing. We smiled at each other because it was so obvious we were having the same experience of thrilled awe. And hey ~ thanks for the photographic compliment!
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Post by fumobici on Oct 4, 2019 21:03:31 GMT
This is all quite magical, as is the place. I found the proportions of the square and the basicila's place in it quite pleasing from most angles, I'll simply assume it would be impossible to create something that was completely harmonious from *all* points of view. I like entering the square from the West and proceeding towards the Giudecca Canal hanging a Ralph at the tower. I'm struggling to think of any other square that can really compare. One little jewel in the square that I wasn't expecting at all was the Logetta del Sansivino, a bit of a dollhouse with the imposing campanile lording over it but exquisite under closer examination. I posted some photos of it here a few years back.
Bixa, you found stuff I never noticed and beautifully documented it. I almost feel, looking at your photographs, that I'd never really completely been there! Have the cruise ships stopped for the Winter yet? I'm actually in Italy now and I am being sorely tempted to book a room there instead of seeing Naples after looking at this. Yes, it might rain, but the rain makes the stone buildings show their colors. I could take the train from here in maybe four hours (roughly the same as the ride to Napoli). What do you think?
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Post by lagatta on Oct 4, 2019 22:14:50 GMT
Well, if I go to Europe this year, it will be to Amsterdam (for semi-volunteer work: that is, I'm paid like a grad student and get room and board). It is more certain to rain than in Venice, and of course it will be colder, as in all the so-called Venices of the north. Fumobici, you will probably find this interesting www.iveser.it/ historical site dedicated to the Resistance and to labour and social struggles in Venice and the region. Also a research institute, and one dedicated to historical memory of those who weren't Doges or immensely wealthy merchants in Venice and the region. You will also find a link to the stumbling stones in Venice and other interesting aspects.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 4, 2019 23:34:09 GMT
fumobici, thank you for corroborating my stance on the beautiful proportions of the piazza and its buildings. And I must disagree about which person saw and showed more, as I just looked at your Venice report again and am forced to say that you outshown me. It was your report that fueled my desire to go to that city. It does say a great deal that looking at each others pictures makes us feel we need to see yet more of that magical place. I think the two reports make good companion pieces. I don't know about the cruise ships. I was mentally prepared for Venice being very touristed, but even in all those skinny streets I never felt overwhelmed by clumps of tourists the way I did a few times in Florence. I totally agree with you about the rain enhancing things, even though it was hard enough a few times to keep me trapped inside. As far as Naples vs. Venice ... *sigh* That's impossible for me to say. They are so different from each other. Yes, you have not seen Naples yet, but I totally understand how Venice keeps drawing one back. I will PM you with information on my lodgings in both places. Maybe you'll be able to tell from that & from my reports which trip calls you the most right now.
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Post by lagatta on Oct 5, 2019 11:10:07 GMT
Naples and Venice are so different that it would be hard to say which one to choose. I knew the precise names for those church parts - in three languages - once upon a time, but should go back and study them, with the benefits of internet (videos etc) as well as books in print.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 5, 2019 16:29:17 GMT
LaGatta, I keep wishing I'd do better at retaining architectural terms, as so often they're included in descriptions that would help my appreciation of a building. As it was, I passed right under that fabulous ceiling shown in the second set of mosaic domes above without even seeing it, probably because I was so excited that the guard let me go into the church in the middle of Mass.
Looking at the wikipedia entry on the church makes me want to arm myself with more information and go back and spend a couple of hours inside.
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Post by questa on Oct 6, 2019 4:53:02 GMT
Because I usually had months of time between booking and leaving, I had time to read up on the places I hoped to see. Really good info I photocopied and made my own little booklet so I could understand what I was seeing. The various guides on the longer trips (Iran, Tibet etc) saw that I had done some homework and would point out finer details that they thought I might be interested in without telling the rest of the group. I have loved reading of anything on the Silk Road for years and sometimes had to almost had to pinch myself to realize that ...Yes, This WAS Samarkand or Khiva or X'ian as I had imagined.
There are however, places for which no words can prepare you, and Bixa's St Mark's seems one of these. Her fantastic photographer's eye can give us the idea of the place but we cannot smell the incense-y smell of centuries of prayer that hovers in the interior, or hear the murmurings of the faithful at worship. Little bells tinkle or outside, large bells sound out the day. Guide books are great for information, but nothing beats just Being There.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 6, 2019 17:11:53 GMT
Thank you for the lovely words, Questa. And yes -- you are so right about being there and knowing that you did the right thing in coming to a place that drew you so strongly.
I kept thinking of you as I posted these pictures, as I knew you would zero in on the architecture so gleefully cribbed from the "infidels".
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Post by kerouac2 on Nov 13, 2019 7:15:15 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 13, 2019 14:45:06 GMT
One person apparently died because the waters messed up the electricity in his house. An Italy travel site I follow reported seven deaths so far.
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