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Post by tod2 on Jul 4, 2020 11:40:09 GMT
Bixa, please don't shoot me down in flames, but I get the feeling that they had no idea they were doing anything wrong. They lived by the rules of the society they were brought up in and their off-spring copied the template. Actually, some very good kindhearted people did things they had no idea were too extreme, because it was the norm. Let me tell you about an incident from my childhood:
My father was a farmer from a strict Afrikaans family. I was about 7yrs old when one day I saw my father fly into a huge rage. As on all farms we had house servants galore. This particular day the kitchen "boy" as they were called, dropped the block of butter onto the floor as he was setting the table for dinner. Without thinking, or in fright , he picked it up and put it back in the dish. When my father noticed finger marks on the soft butter he asked how come they got there. The young lad had to own up and received a "good thrashing". That was the norm. This is the same dad who walked out of a church when British soldiers were told to leave the church service by the pastor. If they could not worship there, neither was he going to and walked out with them. No, my dad was not the person who coined the phrase "Butter Fingers"…...
Kerouac, I googled Black African Entrepreneurs and see there is a list of 50 top people. A product which makes billions and is reportedly made in South Africa (but I could not find out the name of the Manufacturer), is a line of beauty products mainly for hair, called Dark and Lovely. It's been going for years and years now. I suspect its made in China and distributed in South Africa but not sure, because it is sold all over Australia too.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jul 4, 2020 12:23:49 GMT
Dark and Lovely is sold in France, too. In fact, it is a subsidiary of l'Oréal.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jul 4, 2020 12:53:06 GMT
I saw that as from June 30th, the wonderful New York Times decided that henceforth it would write Black instead of black. However, white does not become White, because that would be racist. I hope we get more genuine progress like this.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 4, 2020 14:11:29 GMT
Kerouac - if it is a subsidurey of L'Oreal it would be made under license in South Africa. Sounds like China would have nothing to do with it. I don't get the 'black' thing. What is the NY Times trying to prove? As a matter of fact most South Africans don't refer to the majority ethnic group as 'Black" as they are not. They are brownn-skinned except for tribes from further up North. Nigerians are very recognisble due to their very dark black skin. There are other tribes that are similar. Hey! What about the coffee shop in Paris called Black On Black near Bastille?
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Post by spaceneedle on Jul 4, 2020 19:02:44 GMT
Bixa, please don't shoot me down in flames, I think it's a bit too late for that.
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Post by casimira on Jul 4, 2020 22:50:50 GMT
The NYT Editor hails from NOLA. I remember when he was a rookie with the Times Picayune. Nice guy, very nice family.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 5, 2020 0:55:01 GMT
I didn't know that, Casimira!
Not that I could swear to it, but I think I've always capitalized black and white when referring to races, on the sort of vague idea that nationalities get capitalized. Even though I always read the NYTimes, I think its day as a writing style guide is over. I liked it when newspapers were written to a higher standard than everyday speech.
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Post by questa on Jul 5, 2020 4:23:04 GMT
A journo told me that newspapers write to a reading age of 12. It is only the comment column writers that can lash out with four syllable words!
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Post by questa on Jul 5, 2020 4:33:11 GMT
Bixa, please don't shoot me down in flames, but I get the feeling that they had no idea they were doing anything wrong. They lived by the rules of the society they were brought up in and their off-spring copied the template. Actually, some very good kindhearted people did things they had no idea were too extreme, because it was the norm OK, Let's test it...what activities do we accept as normal today that in 50 years will be considered as 1) anti-social 2) Just not on and 3) evil It is noticeable here that drivers are being shunned for driving without due care.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jul 5, 2020 8:12:59 GMT
No, I have not forgotten. Apparently you have forgotten how hard women fought to get those rights and the fact that they're still fighting sexism, unequal pay, and for control over their own bodies, proving that attitudes about women haven't changed all that radically despite legislation. Groups such as Black Lives Matter are fighting for the same kind of thing -- to be automatically seen as citizens, rather than having race be the uppermost way of seeing another person. Bixa, I had forgotten about your penchance for microaggressions, but now I'm reminded. Just a few things... 1. You don't know me, nor do you know anything about my experiences. As someone who is from a mixed indigenous background, it bears reminding that those from marginalized groups are capable of speaking for themselves. Don't assume that you fully understand our struggles or what our movements are about. 2. It might also serve you (and the forum) better if the tone policing was taken down a few notches. 3. If what you read online triggers you to the point of aggression, it might be wise to just scroll on by.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 5, 2020 11:19:53 GMT
I had to write at about a 12-year-old reading level when writing for my tenants' association. It is much harder then it sounds when one is used to writing at a university level. But also important in order for people to understand their rights and obligations; I was also writing about housing struggles in different parts of the world.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 5, 2020 11:33:06 GMT
Golly Questa who knows?! I'm happy to report that a start to rectify some derogatory name references to events started long before South Africa shed the noose around it's neck, called Apartheid. One example is the Minstrel Carnival held in Cape Town every New year. It is also known by other names in Afrikaans - translated called "The Second New Year" Street party. In English it has always been known as "The Coon Carnival" .
A COLOURFUL HISTORY
In the folklore, the Tweede Nuwe Jaar street party dates back to the colonial era, when slavery was rife in South Africa. Slaves had only one day off a year: 2 January. So while their masters slept off the debauchery of New Year’s day, slaves used the day for revelry and self-expression through vibrant song and dance in the streets. But according to sahistory.org.za, the rule came from the governor of the Cape at the time, Isbrand Broke. He wanted slaves to join the New Year’s Day celebrations by refraining from work and accepting offerings of clothing, money and tobacco. So on 1 January 1674, slaves joined their masters in celebration of New Year’s Day and, as part of their celebrations, the slaves also paraded in the streets singing serenades.
When the slaves were emancipated in the 1830s, they celebrated in the same way and continued to do so over the New Year’s period. History plays an important role in Klopse culture and the carnival is as much about raucous revelry and entertainment as it is about preserving an age-old custom. Tradition is the bottom line – that’s what it’s all about. It goes on today because of tradition, and it will go on for the next 100 years because of this too. This is also why the carnival is a predominantly coloured affair. Although clubs welcome those of other races and cultures, for most members, the Klopse and what goes with it is simply in their blood – a ritual they learnt from their parents and will pass on to their own children in time. At the end of the nineteenth century the ways in which New Year was celebrated in Cape Town, especially among coloured people, would be significantly influenced by American ‘blackface’ minstrelsy. American minstrel troupes were initially comprised of white comedians, singers and musicians, and during their performances they would impersonate African American slaves from the south. Using burnt cork, they blackened their faces. They also wore very eccentric clothing such as colourful tailcoats when they impersonated the more stylish societal figures and rags as their impersonations turned to rural slaves. Humorous skits, the singing of “negro” songs as well as playing instruments such as the violin and banjo were considered essential elements of their act. Within this context, participants were referred to as coons, a racist term which referred to the inferiority of the slaves. Despite the negative connotations attached to this term, many troupes today still prefer to use this term, many without knowing what the term means.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 5, 2020 13:06:10 GMT
Those that are called Aunty or Uncle for any reason, what do they think about it? Do they think it is demeaning and a relic of the times of slavery and colonialism?
Like K2, I've spent many years in Asian, African and Arabic cultures/countries where it is the norm between any race or colour and I've often been called Uncle. I am in ignorance as to if the objection to it, which I've never considered, is focussed mainly on the southern USA States or more widespread/worldwide as it's not something I've encountered.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jul 5, 2020 15:11:52 GMT
It's starting to look as though we have a consensus about "How Far Is Too Far?" Things have gone too far. But the question now would be WHY have they gone too far? Do people think it is necessary to find something about which to feel guilty? And do they feel better when they have invented some far fetched racist connection to innocent words like Aunt or Uncle? And once they have cancelled these words, is the problem solved?
It is all seeming more and more ridiculous to me. This doesn't mean that there aren't quite a few terms and usages that need to be changed, but a lot of this is getting out of hand in the political correctness competition.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 5, 2020 16:00:45 GMT
Whoever you are, your "too far" is no doubt different to my "too far". Be it of a lesser or greater degree, no two people will feel the same. We can agree there has to be changes but these seem to be driven by those who think we have not gone far enough even yet. The variance is all the way from those who never seem to be satisfied and examine everything they see through the lens of if it is offensive to someone somewhere somehow to those at the other end of the scale who don't see offence in anything.
We all have an opinion of what is ok and what not - how good a person was compared to how bad etc. How history should be manipulated and hidden or removed from view. Or not. If you ignore any painful history by removing it, hiding it, never mentioning it, saying it's still there somewhere but you've got to find it, people are too lazy to do so or are unaware it is still accessible - you defeat the object of what history is and the ability to learn from it.
Example - Mother Teresa - how far do you go in saying what a wonderful, selfless and good individual she was when it is said, "She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction." She is also slated for squandering millions in donations by not providing proper health care. There are many other criticisms as well. The point being, she is held up as a paragon of virtue and yet whilst her heart might have been in the right place, a lot of what she did, didn't always meet with approval nor would be acceptable today - so how far do you go in removing any and all, references to anything that is not conforming to the values of now.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 5, 2020 16:07:36 GMT
Well said Kerouac. It would be impossible for people to look the world and its faults from the same angle. Past experiences in our lives shape our views, but as you know my story goes somewhat very deep. If I wanted to curl up and die I could. But when I look out at the horizon and see a future for us, all thoughts of not rising up and being there for my wonderful family disappear. The past is in the past, where it belongs.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 5, 2020 17:36:38 GMT
A journo told me that newspapers write to a reading age of 12. It is only the comment column writers that can lash out with four syllable words! Questa, I always heard a similar thing, that newspapers were written to an 8th grade level. That statement is so old, though, that it could be referring to a higher level than we imagine. Anyway, I was talking about the style standards of a newspaper, rather than vocabulary. This kind of thing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times_Manual_of_Style_and_UsageI've often been called Uncle. I am in ignorance as to if the objection to it, which I've never considered, is focussed mainly on the southern USA States or more widespread/worldwide as it's not something I've encountered. Mark, I know that those kinds of familiar usages vary around the world and are often affectionate or respectful. I can only report on my own experience growing up and why I can see why Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima are outdated and very probably offensive symbols. I was organizing kids for a marching event and my fellow teacher organizer who was black suggested "Dixie." Not surprising. When I was in grade school in the '50s, I think that was one of the standards we all learned, along with The Battle Hymn of the Republic. I wouldn't completely trust my memory on this, but it seems the history behind the Battle Hymn was at least alluded to, whereas I don't remember learning anything about Dixie other than it was about the south as a region. Far more than you want to know here: www.npr.org/2018/09/20/649954248/the-anthemic-allure-of-dixie-an-enduring-confederate-monument
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Post by spaceneedle on Jul 5, 2020 18:29:25 GMT
Well said Kerouac. It would be impossible for people to look the world and its faults from the same angle. Past experiences in our lives shape our views, but as you know my story goes somewhat very deep. If I wanted to curl up and die I could. But when I look out at the horizon and see a future for us, all thoughts of not rising up and being there for my wonderful family disappear. The past is in the past, where it belongs. Great post. Everyone's experiences are different. Case in point.... My grandmother was a victim of the boarding school system for Native American children. She was sent to one as a young child after her mother died during the great depression. Those schools were notorious for all kinds of abuse and thought to be better for indigenous children to "un-Indian" them. They were taught to shun their culture (and severely punished if they didn't) and be ashamed of elders who retained the old ways. This is one of the hazards of "society" deciding that they know best and should control the narrative for other people. This is also why Native Americans are in general not "joiners" in movements. There has been a long history of bad deals and betrayals they've dealt with from outsiders, so they are distrustful. As a result of being chucked into a boarding school, my Grandmother never talked about her culture and went through most of her life passing as a white person. She was very successful in the medical field, which had few females in it at that time. She could not let anyone know about her background. Only when she was well into her 60s did she begin to realize the wrong that was done to her and her siblings. Thankfully my mother helped her become awakened to this horrible theft of identity. I remember seeing her crying a few times and not understanding why. Now I do. I think at the end of her life she finally felt a connection to her ancestors and tried really hard to show her grandchildren these connections too.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jul 5, 2020 19:27:43 GMT
My grandmother also suffered, just a little, because it wasn't a racial thing but a cultural thing. All of the children in her school were punished if they were caught speaking Vosgian dialect instead of French.
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Post by casimira on Jul 5, 2020 19:56:49 GMT
Many of these posts can be cross referenced with the two videos BJD and Bixa posted in the North America section, suboard Louisiana. Very similar but different experiences of cultures being victimized. I certainly experienced it in my small town being Polish in a very WASP environ. I remember my mother saying that at one time that is was better to see a "colored" person walk across someone's front lawn than a Polish person. For me, it wasn't my peers that acted out their prejudices but their parents who enforced who their children could or could not play with. It was very f'd up and when you are young like that it's difficult to understand and even more difficult for someone like my mother to try and explain to me. She would find me crying alone in my room because I wasn't invited to a friend's sleepover and all the other girls were. I was the only Polish girl in my class and suffered many cruelties as a result. God forbid if you were Jewish...
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Jul 5, 2020 20:12:26 GMT
I belong to a watsapp group consisting of retired ex-colleagues, including my old boss. We all adore JR (started as a joke but stuck), he was highly respected in the field of immunohaematology, sat on numerous committees and ran the largest blood transfusion department in Europe at one time. Anyway...he has never been particularly politically correct, was always putting his arms around female members of staff...HE thought he was being paternal...we squirmed and avoided being alone with him...he never tried anything really naughty as far as I know. I was one of his favourites and he encouraged me to take higher qualifications and would have pushed me to apply for senior/management posts if I'd let him.
Anyway...he's always forwarding borderline offensive emails, and posts nonsense on watsapp which we all ignore...BUT yesterday he posted a particularly offensive thing...it was forwarded, it didnt originate with him but that's hardly the point. It depicted a statue of Maggie Thatcher pointing away from herself, with a comment about statues being vandalised and what ethnic minorities should 'go and do'...it could have been lifted directly from a national front webpage.
I couldnt let it be...I reacted by commenting that I would quite happily pull THAT statue down and said that the post was really offensive. I then chickened out and tried to delete my comment but could only delete it from my own feed. One by one all the others got in touch with me to say thank you, that they knew JR needed to be reined in but nobody wanted to be the one to do it...they're all still terrified of him (altho...as i say...we do still love the man)
Anyway. He didnt say anything, but removed the post. Hopefully he will THINK next time...for goodness sake...he employed dozens of people from minority groups over the years!
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Post by bjd on Jul 6, 2020 7:50:23 GMT
Good for you, Cheery. It often just takes one person to step forward. Maybe the man will think a bit more from now on.
Unlike Casi, I grew up in a city that became very multicultural starting in the 1960s. Before that, Toronto, and Ontario in general were heavily Scots Presbyterian-influenced: no movies on Sundays, no bars open on Sundays, and from what my mother's work colleagues told her -- before the war Catholics and Protestants did not mix at all. And there were insulting terms for everyone except Anglos.
Then came a huge wave of European immigration and the city became much more interesting. Cafés opened, delicatessens too, you could go to the movies on a Sunday. But even though my high school had 1300 kids in it, and looking at the school yearbooks, lots of people had names that were not Anglo, the most "popular" were those of Anglo background. I took the opposite tack from Casimira and ignored them all, did not participate in any extracurricular activities. I didn't realize it at the time I think, but looking back it was probably a way of showing I didn't care. "Polish pride" my husband would say.
Then, in the late 1970s, I worked for a year at the University of Toronto. One graduate student from New York City, with a Polish name, talked to me one day and said, "It's cool to be ethnic!". The national broadcaster, CBC began to pronounce names properly (the French still don't).
Now, of course, things have changed totally and contemporary Toronto looks and sounds nothing like it did in those days.
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Post by casimira on Jul 6, 2020 15:20:19 GMT
I simply just hung out with my cousins close to my age. Goodness knows I had enough of them on both sides of the family. Between them and the library that's where I would be. My high school class was only 25 students, the second largest class to graduate in it's history. (the other was in 1968 with 40). Boomers. The school was more than 50% Black, technically making it segregated in the reverse. Children of migrant workers from the South who arrived in the '30's and 40's to work in the potato fields which were largely owned by WASPS. Their living quarters were filthy shacks that would often catch on fire in the wintertime as the inhabitants had no source of warmth provided for them and had to resort to using highly flammable liquids. Kerosene, gasoline, turpentine. The fire department, all volunteers, would respond in the middle of the night to the umpteen fires that were ignited by some poor soul who fell asleep and then unwittingly go to light a cigararette when he awoke and then POOF! The oral histories of these families were passed along to the next generation and the generation that followed. My fellow Black students would remember a surname and act out the wrath of what their great grandparents and grandparents on down had told them so the WASP kids got their just due and they would leave us Polish kids alone because our families never participated in having hired migrant workers. There were enough offspring in our families to provide all the labor that was needed to run a farm. Payback is a bitch and they got theirs.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 6, 2020 16:06:22 GMT
Casimira - You Are talking about the years around 1968. I graduated in 1966 in a pure white school. There were no mixed schools at all. Fast forward to 1983….I am taking my son to pre-school, no mixed races. . 1986 I am taking my son to an all inclusive race school because it was a Private School. No Government schools are allowing Indian, Bantu, or Coloured children. This mixed races situation is strange to us. But guess what happens…my son befriends a dear little African boy from the Transkei. His name was Luntu. Both his parents were doctors - that's how he could afford to come and be tutored privately. For the next 8 years Luntu became my second son. Where we went he went. We holidayed in Mauritius, the Comores, Locally and in the year of my sons 16th birthday I flew the two boys and myself to Disney World in Florida for 10 days. Well that was the school years. When they went their own ways they have met up at an old boys reunion only once.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jul 7, 2020 4:57:24 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Jul 9, 2020 15:51:16 GMT
I see that the North American Scrabble Players Association has decided to ban 238 insulting words (nigger, kike, faggot, etc.). That is a wonderful start. In a year or two, they should be able to ban words like fat, stupid, moronic, ugly, stinky and other insulting words and then all problems will have been solved.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 9, 2020 15:58:24 GMT
Kerouac, Kerouac. They cannot ban Stinky. He is a little African boy I have been indulging? helping? just encouraging? Today I handed his mom ( a trainee beautician) a money bag of coins and told her to tell 'Stinky' to put them in his moneybox. I have been buying Stinky books, puzzles, and a fully functioning stove that rings bells and whistles……nearly drove his mom crazy! So no Stinky ban please.
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Post by casimira on Jul 9, 2020 16:22:32 GMT
You're so funny Tod!!!
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Post by kerouac2 on May 12, 2021 15:14:03 GMT
Now we can discuss whether the Hollywood Foreign Press Association should even exist. NBC said they won't broadcast the Golden Globes anymore which is fine with me. The Golden Globes were never considered to be as important as the Oscars but they still got lots of media coverage even though the HFPA only has about 90 members (albeit from 55 countries) while the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (Oscars) has 9362 members (who must be sponsored) so they are completely incomparable.
HFPA members can do what they want and have been accused of being racist because there are no black members. (We may wonder why they should be forced to have black members since most of the foreign countries concerned have very low black populations, but they do have Asian members from various Asian countries.) The United States black population is now 13% so should there be quotas based on population? If so, there were far too many black nominees this year in the acting categories. (Yes, I know, trying to make amends for crimes of the past...)
Anyway, my own opinion is that the HFPA can continue to exist and have its usual influence -- or not. It is the film community which should decide and not the media. The consensus is that most of them are far too old (which was also a problem with the Oscars until 2 years ago), so they really need to modernize their membership. But is it even worth it? The United States cares very little about the opinion of other countries on just about every subject, so why on earth did they ever allow the Golden Globes to be influential? My own feeling is that it's time to dump the idea.
Unfortunately, in France, they have copied the idea with the Lumières de la presse internationale. It uses 123 foreign press representatives from 61 countries to award prizes to French films. But it was only created in 1996 (by an American!), so they should dump that, too.
Who cares what those damned foreigners think?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 28, 2023 17:34:46 GMT
As wokism and the definition of "insulting" words continues to evolve, I thought this was pretty good. I understand the concept behind it, but really, will this never end? AP deletes ‘the French' tweet
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