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Post by bjd on May 18, 2021 15:08:17 GMT
To add about Russian Jews in Israel -- not sure they moved to the left, since they had plenty of that in the USSR. I think some of them went pretty far to the right -- including one guy whose name escapes me but who became head of a right-wing political party. It's true though that they were mostly secular. And quite a few used the possibility of moving to Israel to later move to the States or Canada. Kerouac -- that's meat and dairy,not meat and fish.
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Post by tod2 on May 18, 2021 16:21:58 GMT
Kerouac -- that's meat and dairy,not meat and fish.[span style="display: inline-block; background-image: url(" "); background-repeat: no-repeat;"][img oncontextmenu="secure_image(this); return false" src="::grin:: [/span][/quote] Tod, I think that back when you were there, most of the Israelis were not yet petrified into their current strange attitudes, although I do find your anecdote about your son not being allowed to drink milk in the restaurant absolutely ridiculous. After all, you were not feeding him fish at the same time, were you? Kerouac, we were eating lunch at a restaurant serving St.Peters Fish - Tilapia. I was a new mom. My son of two was still "ön the bottle" Suddenly the proprietor indicated to our guide that he was not happy with the baby consuming milk while we were at a table eating fish - non dairy I suppose. So I stuck my son under the table to drink his bottle but they were still not too happy.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 16:25:14 GMT
Actually, I think that fish is generally authorised but shellfish is verboten -- perhaps the annoyance was of offending other customers? I admit that I don't really understand the silly food rules of certain religions.
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Post by tod2 on May 18, 2021 16:31:45 GMT
perhaps the annoyance was of offending other customers? Exactly. That was the complaint....but there were no other customers.
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Post by whatagain on May 18, 2021 18:35:49 GMT
I really liked all comme ts, and unsurprisingly nine if you offers a firm opinion. Which is a blessing compared to all those ignorant guys who know it all. The thing that caught my attention is the comment that we have all been driven by culpability of thinking bad things about the Israelis, mixing them with what Jews suffered. It clearly was the case for me. It took me and i am not totally clean a lot of time to start criticising the Israelis because of the concentration camps.
On a lighter note, i concurr about the fact that Dutch are bad tourists... I am not sure all Belgians are so nice, but i do my best to live up to our reputation by pretending to be nice when on holiday.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 18:43:57 GMT
I remember that 10 or 15 years ago a lot of people were still saying that young Germans should act just as guilty and contrite as their Nazi bastard grandfathers. Finally, that seems to be finished, at least in Europe.
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Post by lugg on May 18, 2021 19:02:24 GMT
Well as I said I would , I have been doing some reading to try to get a better understanding of what is happening. This is what I read earlier today ( warning ...its very long but I think worth reading) . Whilst I would not say it gave me a completely different perspective it certainly gave me many more avenues to explore. It ( the writing and the photos ) are also very poignant and moved me very much . www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return
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Post by bixaorellana on May 18, 2021 19:14:29 GMT
Wow, Lugg ~ thanks for that! It's not only worth reading, it should be required reading. As I went through the article I was thinking about how many people more or less in my age group have seen the movie Exodus &/or read the book. You have to wonder how many of them base their view of Israel on that.
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Post by mickthecactus on May 18, 2021 20:14:21 GMT
Indeed. Fine article lugg. Thanks.
I heard Exodus by Bob Marley bixa. Does that count?
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Post by Biddy on May 18, 2021 23:54:59 GMT
K2 - I agree the influx of Haredi from Russia and elsewhere has not been positive for Israel. These are the nut jobs who have 9-12 children and live on welfare. Rather the men 'study' while the women work and the elder children look after the younger ones. Bibi depends on these voters. We had a very good show on HBO 'our boys' which focused on this community. I read somewhere that French people who emigrated to Israel discovered that they were more French than Jewish!
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Post by Biddy on May 18, 2021 23:57:07 GMT
Bjd - Natan Sharansky?
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Post by bjd on May 19, 2021 6:58:13 GMT
Yes, I think so. Speaking of Haredi, when I was in Israel, it was to visit friends. He had been my husband's PhD student and was doing a post-doc in Tel Aviv. He told me that his university colleagues really disliked the ultra-orthodox community, resented them for sponging off tax payers while not paying any taxes themselves, not doing military service, etc. I would guess that any Soviet or Russians who arrived in Israel had not dressed as Haredi back in Russia, but started doing so in Israel. Nonetheless, my impression was that most of the Soviet Jews who immigrated to Israel were secular.
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Post by Biddy on May 19, 2021 13:38:48 GMT
bjd - Agreed many of Soviet Jews in Israel were secular. I am not sure how the Haredi movement grew in Israel. I go to Montreal yearly and I was surprised at the size of the Haredi community there.
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Post by lagatta on May 19, 2021 13:47:06 GMT
I want to start a discussion on religious ultra-orthodoxy, fundamentalism etc. My example will be Hasidim in NYC because there is a major study on them by an ex-Hasid, but as we all know, all the Abrahamic monotheism have glaring examples (there is a St-Pius the 10th ultraorthodox Catholic church not far from my place, and an ultra-fundie Muslim cleric was investigated for indoctrinating Maghrebi and Middle Eastern youth in a violent strain of that religion) as well as do other faiths.
Biddya, the large, insular and often antisocial Haredi community here is a reason this topic warrants discussion. A friend of secular Jewish origin (whose husband is a non-Jewish Scot also from a secular family) lives on a street where more and more Haredi have moved to. She can't stand them.
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Post by bjd on May 19, 2021 13:51:34 GMT
One of my sons lived in Montreal for 2 years. His first housing was in Mile End, close to Outremont and the Orthodox area. One of his flatmates used to earn money by walking streets in Outremont on the Sabbath and being paid to turn on light switches and other "work" that the Haredis couldn't do.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 19, 2021 13:53:32 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on May 19, 2021 18:38:37 GMT
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Post by fumobici on May 19, 2021 20:00:55 GMT
What is wrong with Hungary? Maybe they need something to eat.
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Post by questa on May 20, 2021 0:12:24 GMT
Let them eat Turkey
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Post by mickthecactus on May 20, 2021 20:07:59 GMT
Ceasefire
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Post by bixaorellana on May 20, 2021 20:22:05 GMT
Lots of coverage in NYTimes live feed, if you can get around the paywall ~ www.nytimes.com/live/2021/05/20/world/israel-palestine-gaza#israel-hamas-ceasefireIt always gets me that these things don't start immediately. I think about all those men who died after some pompous non-combatants decided that it sounded really cool to have the armistice take place on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month. This is how many: Fighting continued up to 11 o'clock, with 2,738 men dying on the last day of the war. WikipediaAs I write this, it's not even midnight in Jerusalem. From the NYTimes live feed: JERUSALEM — Israel and Hamas have agreed to a cease-fire to take effect on Friday morning, after 11 days of fighting, officials on both sides said on Thursday.
A senior Hamas official based in Qatar confirmed in a telephone interview that the group had agreed to a cease-fire mediated by Egypt, beginning at 2 a.m. on Friday. Since May 10, Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza, has fired rockets into Israel, and Israel has bombed targets in Gaza.
In Israel, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office announced that his security cabinet had voted to accept the Egyptian truce proposal, but cautioned “that the reality on the ground will determine the continuation of the campaign.” Sirens sounded in Israeli towns bordering the Gaza Strip in the minutes after the Israeli announcement, indicating that militants were continuing to fire rockets.
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Post by mickthecactus on May 20, 2021 20:39:00 GMT
I wonder what Trump would have done through all this?
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Post by kerouac2 on May 20, 2021 21:13:41 GMT
Oh, what a question! You know he would have gone golfing.
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Post by questa on May 20, 2021 23:07:32 GMT
Elizabethan era. Spain v England... "Now Drake was playing a rubber of bowls When news of th' Armada came. 'Well they must wait their turn, good souls' So he turned and finished the game"
(Drake knew the tide was against him. A few hours later he launched his fleet and won.)
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Post by lagatta on May 20, 2021 23:19:16 GMT
Drat, you beat me to that (obvious) one.
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Post by questa on May 21, 2021 8:24:02 GMT
Gee, I thought I'd be the only one who remembered it! I have always had a soft spot for Sir Francis and his chutzpah.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 3, 2021 20:20:56 GMT
Looks like Netanyahu is on his way but the coalition replacing him looks dubious.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 3, 2021 20:22:49 GMT
He was always like Trump but now he is looking even more and more like Trump.
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Post by bjd on Jun 4, 2021 6:13:54 GMT
Netanyahu is obviously another one of these guys who feels he is entitled to be in power, no matter what. Of course, he can't get immunity for his corruption charges if he is out of office.
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Post by bjd on Jun 14, 2021 11:00:42 GMT
Not that I feel in the least bit sorry for him, but imagine how Netanyahu feels when people are dancing and singing in the street because he is finally out of power.
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