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Post by gyro on Apr 24, 2009 23:03:05 GMT
I don't disagree that many of us can cite times when the 'teaching' of literature has not been adequate, but this is NO reason to stop it. Far from it.
Lola, I'm pleased your daughters have turned out to please you, and hope very much they please themselves too, but I would hate to see a world where it is deemed teenagers are incapable of appreciation of anything based on their stage in life as this strikes a dagger at the very heart of the meaning of education.
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Post by lola on Apr 25, 2009 1:15:14 GMT
There is the wasted time issue, too.
Say you loathed a certain book that was going to be Good For You and make you a good citizen. Say you spent hours reading and loathing it. Hours you could have been working on your tennis serve, or dancing, or reading a book that moved and spoke to you. Schoolchildren get inured to that scenario, but I don't feel it should be inevitable.
The books that tend to be foisted upon middle school American students drip with improving messages.
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Post by lola on Apr 25, 2009 1:18:34 GMT
gyro, you have mis- and over-interpreted me from the word go, and even been a tad presumptive here and there, but that's okay.
When people start talking about daggers into hearts of things, I'm afraid I roll my eyes a bit.
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Post by hwinpp on Apr 25, 2009 1:56:53 GMT
Don't you think there's acertain canon of works children should read? Regardless of whether they like it or not?
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Post by lola on Apr 25, 2009 3:44:41 GMT
Oh, probably eventually more or less. What age are we talking? Off the top of my head, age 7-12 or so: Boxcar Children Nancy Drew Betsy-Tacy books Laura Ingalls Wilder books Tom Sawyer Sherlock Holmes Series of Unfortunate Events Stalky and Co. Harry Potter Other books that are fun, that they love. Set these down in front of them (after having read to them from earlier ages) and tell them to go to it. Then Huckleberry Finn, Pride and Prejudice, whatever, more books that they love. Trashy books. Stupid books. Sexy books. Then when they're mid teens or so have them write essays and analyze, develop writing skills. Introduce more difficult works.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 27, 2009 16:24:46 GMT
I remember going through a stage where I devoured biographies. And they have stuck with me over the years. (I will never forget that Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto, and will argue to the death that the Trivial Pursuit card that says Percival Lowell discovered it is wrong!)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2009 17:26:38 GMT
I went through a biography phase. Unfortunately in recent years, I had a friend who was a biography addict, and she would recite every little thing that she had learned about someone even if you were not at all interested.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 27, 2009 18:16:57 GMT
That's a tic common to many people, but with variations.
-- "Did you see the big game last night?"
~~ "I hate football."
-- *gives blow-by-blow description*
Same thing with movies, books, and tv shows.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 27, 2009 18:29:52 GMT
They're convinced they can convert the listener to a fan...
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Post by rikita on Apr 28, 2009 6:08:08 GMT
Oh, probably eventually more or less. What age are we talking? Off the top of my head, age 7-12 or so: Boxcar Children Nancy Drew Betsy-Tacy books Laura Ingalls Wilder books Tom Sawyer Sherlock Holmes Series of Unfortunate Events Stalky and Co. Harry Potter Other books that are fun, that they love. Set these down in front of them (after having read to them from earlier ages) and tell them to go to it. Then Huckleberry Finn, Pride and Prejudice, whatever, more books that they love. Trashy books. Stupid books. Sexy books. Then when they're mid teens or so have them write essays and analyze, develop writing skills. Introduce more difficult works. wow, i must have been a very uneducated child... the only ones of these i read as a kid was tom sawyer and huckleberry finn. thing with canons is - it is very difficult to put one up, as they are always a cultural thing, they might work for a certain time in a certain country, but not more, really... personally, i find it sad how many kids have to go through life without having read "ronja the robber's daughter" - then again, i know a lot of people who haven't read it...
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Post by gyro on Apr 28, 2009 11:47:46 GMT
"a certain book that was going to be Good For You and make you a good citizen"
Lola, now it's MY time to be rolling my eyes ! Who said books make you a good citizen ?
Apologies, if I misinterrupted you at times; that's just the way you came across, and obviously that's the point of a discussion, isn't it ? To exchange differing views ...
Certainly, when you defined the age group thing at #64 as opposed to simply saying 'teens' initially, that fits in with a 'standard' education in terms of High School ages that I have in mind.
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Post by lola on Apr 28, 2009 14:54:42 GMT
Yes, rikita. Anyone can lead a perfectly full productive life without having read either the Robber's Dtr or any of the ones I threw out.
It's good to be exposed to good writing, of course, and all but one of the ones I mentioned strike me that wey.
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Post by lola on Apr 28, 2009 15:05:54 GMT
gyro: who said books make you a good citizen? kimby, reply #56.
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Post by gyro on Apr 28, 2009 18:45:06 GMT
Ah, right; missed that. Looks like we're agreeing more and more these days, eh ?
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Post by lola on Apr 28, 2009 20:13:19 GMT
Okay. Peace, brother.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 28, 2009 22:33:27 GMT
Actually, I said "informed citizen". No value judgment on the quality of person. But to be informed citizens/participants in a society, shouldn't we at least be familiar with this stuff?
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Post by lola on Apr 29, 2009 0:43:40 GMT
Ooops, sorry kimby. You're right.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 4:53:17 GMT
And we all know how misinformed certain people are by their readings.
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Post by gyro on Apr 29, 2009 8:13:34 GMT
Define 'certain people'.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 8:20:58 GMT
People besides you and me.
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Post by gyro on Apr 29, 2009 12:08:34 GMT
So, everybody else then ?
You and me against the world ? Je ne pense pas.
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Post by lola on Apr 29, 2009 13:20:14 GMT
I had a palm reading once that I feel definitely misinformed me. Never again.
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Post by gyro on Apr 29, 2009 16:53:04 GMT
Was it by William Shakespeare ? The bastard.
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Post by lola on Apr 29, 2009 18:48:52 GMT
No, this was a lady with a scarf around her untidy head. Said something about a dark haired man and a light haired man.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 19:07:40 GMT
Oh, those are the worst! What about curly hair?
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Post by Kimby on Apr 29, 2009 19:42:11 GMT
Who said this? We each observe our world from a different mindset. They are different because each of our outlooks is shaped by a unique grab bag of influences. If you had an inspirational history teacher, lost a child to a drunk driver, saw a UFO, fell in love with a Gypsy, was saved at a Billy Graham revival, really enjoyed a gamelan orchestra high on mushrooms, befriended a cat that gave you ringworm, or grew up in a company town, each of those episodes in your life helped shape your outlook, and helps explain who you are today.
Books can have a huge impact on our outlook. I wish I were more well-read. But I’ve enjoyed some powerfully influential reading since I “finished school,” and I’ve collected what I think are the most important books in my life below. If you’ve enjoyed (or been perturbed by) this blog in the last few years, you can thank (or blame) these authors. When I visit someone’s home, I feel I can learn lots about them by seeing what books fill their shelves.
For your interest, here are my top ten MVBs (listed in chronological order):
Bread for the World (Arthur Simon) Food First (Frances Moore Lappe) The Origins of Totalitarianism (Hannah Arendt) Future in our Hands (Erik Dammann) Manufacturing Consent (Noam Chomsky) War Against the Poor: Low-Intensity Conflict and Christian Faith (Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer) Unexpected News: Reading the Bible with Third World Eyes (Robert McAfee Brown) The United States of Europe (T.R. Reid) The European Dream (Jeremy Rifkin) The End of Poverty (Jeffrey Sachs)
While many of these were best consumed ages ago, they still have their place and most of the authors have gone on to do great things. You can Google any of these and see what I mean.
For travelers, I believe it’s important to read books that explain the economic and political basis of issues you stumble onto in your travels. A basic understanding of the economics of poverty, the politics of empire, and the power of corporations are life skills that give you a foundation to better understand what you experience in your travels. Information that mainstream media considers “subversive” won’t come to you. You need to reach out for it.
What are your most influential books...and why?
Late note: I'll add Anthem by Ayn Rand ("pro-American" and a favorite among Right-wingers for its message of individual freedom versus a Communist hell) and the movie "Koyanaskatsi" to my list and a reminder that I'm not saying these were enjoyable reads. This is about what shapes one's thinking, prepping them to get more out of their travels.Posted by Rick Steves on January 26, 2009 You can read comments and additional book suggestions following the above quoted essay at: www.ricksteves.com/blog/index.cfm?fuseaction=entry&entryID=322
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Post by gyro on Apr 29, 2009 19:52:19 GMT
That sort of opinion always makes me grimace. All you can REALLY do by looking at the books on people's shelves is make crass and conceited assumptions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 19:56:28 GMT
I cringe when people look at my books or records. If only they knew where some of them have come from and why they are there!
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Post by Kimby on Apr 29, 2009 20:15:53 GMT
I visited my great-uncle's farmhouse some years back (before the family farm was gifted to the Michigan Audubon Society as a sanctuary), and was interested to see that their bookshelf had many of the same books as MY bookshelf. Genetic predisposition?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 20:34:44 GMT
Cultural similarities in any case.
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