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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 8:04:13 GMT
Since so much talk is made of bad news, one of the French newspapers took a poll on what the French considered to be good news in the month of June 2009.
Here are the top 5:
46.8% -- the upcoming ban of Scientology in France
46.2% -- the revolt in Iran after the re-election of Ahmadinejad
42.2% -- the score of the ecologists in the European elections
40.5% -- a new watchdog commission to keep an eye on price abuse in supermarkets
36.5% -- Obama’s speech to the Muslim world
It's a shame that there are probably not similar polls elsewhere to see what other countries consider to be good news.
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Post by Jazz on Jul 2, 2009 12:10:11 GMT
This would be an excellent idea. Some balance is needed to encourage people to 'endure and prevail'. We are overwhelmed with the negative in the media and consciously or not, we are affected.
Yesterday, I listened to far too much coverage and was assaulted by Iraq and the renewed violence as the Americans withdraw from the cities, the plight of the returning vets and their rapidly escalating suicide rate. Disturbing and jolting reminders that while the U.S. lost about 4,500 men, the Iraqis lost 80-100,000 of their people. The ongoing revolution in Iran...where are the 'disappeared'?... the 'confession' of the jailed Canadian Newsweek journalist and his questionable fate. The coup in Honduras, Canada's poor position in dealing with environmental concerns (compared to other western countries) and, the Sanford soap opera.
In your list above, I was encouraged by,
1--the revolt in Iran after the re-election of Ahmadinejad
2--Obama's speech to the Muslim world
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Post by imec on Jul 2, 2009 12:23:22 GMT
46.8% -- the upcoming ban of Scientology in France
I wasn't aware of this. Why are they picking on Scientology? I don't know much about it but after reading a brief overview it doesn't seem any more unusual than any of the mainstream religions to me. It may cost a bit more but there are plenty of people who like to pay more... just like designer clothes.
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Post by tillystar on Jul 2, 2009 14:21:12 GMT
I am not comfortable with the practising of any religion being banned but certainly their recruitment methods should be banned.
I truely hate Scientology. A friend's brother joined and he is bi-polar (as is my friend) and his involvement with them led him to attempt suicide. I believe they prey on vunerable people.
Years later my friend and I were walking past their place in central London and they offered us a "free psychological profile". We decided to do it out of interest to see what would happen.
They basically took us in seperate rooms and tested us and then in a very intimidating manner ripped our personalities to shit told us how we had issues, even showed us on charts where our personalities were in comparison to "normal" people blah blah blah. We were told they could help us.
It became very intimidating even having gone in knowing what to expect and it was very hard to leave.
Anyhow, once we escaped my friend and I went for a drink and scribbled together some leaflets explaining their methods (my friend is a great cartoonist) and we went to a shop and got them photocopied and stood outside for an hour handing them out. They were very abusive and angry. It was hilarious.
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Post by imec on Jul 2, 2009 14:43:44 GMT
Sounds nasty. On the other hand, you were adults and able to determine for yourselves whether this was an appropriate set of beliefs to embrace. I'm not sure their approach is any worse than that of mainstream religions - start with an ignorant, impressionable and vulnerable child and tell them "believe this or you'll go to the most despicable place we can conjure up a description of..."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 14:54:42 GMT
The French government case isn't just for typical religious brainwashing. It is for "organized swindling," "multiple banking manipulations," "overcharging of products sold," and "dissimulation of profits." Any commercial entreprise that does that is closed down and the owner goes to jail. Same thing for a fake religion based on money. The final verdict won't be announced until 27 October 2009.
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Post by tillystar on Jul 2, 2009 14:57:59 GMT
Yeah, imec I know what you mean but the methods seem even more cynically and directly designed to prey on the mentally vunerable people such my friend's brother who, once recruited, was pressured to bring in more and more money and they watched him fall apart.
I have also only ever seen these "recruitment shops" in areas of extreme poverty...although of course picking on the poor and offering the desperate a glimmer of hope is a popular recruitment tactic for world religions.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 2, 2009 14:58:33 GMT
This is really interesting. I don't know anything about Scientology, but I remember that in the early 70s St. Petersburg, Florida really had a thing -- city council meetings, newspaper editorials, etc. -- going against it. At the time it seemed like persecution, but there must have been more to it.
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Post by imec on Jul 2, 2009 14:58:41 GMT
Well, you have to start somewhere I guess.
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Post by tillystar on Jul 2, 2009 15:02:05 GMT
Yes, "organized swindling" is a perfect description of what they seemed to be all about to me. As is "fake religion based on money".
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Post by lagatta on Jul 3, 2009 2:22:09 GMT
I really hate them. And it has nothing to do with their science-fictiony "beliefs" - the Abrahamic monotheist beliefs probably most of us were more or less reared in (and yes, even if our parents were non-practising) probably have ideas just as wacky, but few religions are actually founded to swindle money.
I also know people who fell into that when their lives were up shit's proverbial creek (wherever that i).
I'm also heartened by the story about price abuse - especially all the increases after the Euro came in, and to some degree the ecologists' score, though I know that can mean anything. It does indicate that some people at least are waking up to how grave the climate change and environmental crisis really is.
Aside, the joking on the plane as I was FLYING to Europe to take part in an environmental conference about climate change. Yeah, I know.
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Post by bjd on Jul 3, 2009 9:08:10 GMT
When L Ron Hubbard started Scientology in the early 1960s, it was not considered a religion and was not really marketed as one. More on the lines of helping people deal with their psychological issues. But after a while, Hubbard decided to take advantage of the fact that churches are not taxed in the States and incorporated his business as a religion.
So I don't think the French government is really cracking down on a religion -- besides, it's considered a sect in France.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 3, 2009 14:00:24 GMT
Just a little historical note about sects/religions:
many Roman references to Jews are actually references to early Christians, as Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 20:30:23 GMT
In European languages other than English the corresponding words for 'sect', such as "secte" (French), "secta" (Spanish), "seita" (Portuguese), "sekta" (Polish), "sekt" (Swedish), "sekte" (Dutch), "Sekte" (German) or "szekta" (Hungarian), are used sometimes to refer to a harmful religious or political sect, similar to how English-speakers popularly use the word "cult". In France, since the 1970s, "secte" has a specific meaning, which is very different from the English word. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 20:41:37 GMT
On the other hand, the French word "culte", as in "le culte protestant", has no negative connotation.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 4, 2009 2:18:03 GMT
That is interesting. I didn't know that "sect" had any negative meaning.
"Culto" in Spanish is used exactly the same as "culte" in French.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 4, 2009 10:13:10 GMT
Yes, in Latin languages "cult, culto", etc simply means worship. Secte is extremely negative in French. We think of a weird bunch here in Québec and over in France and Switzerland, L'Ordre du temple solaire (Order of the Solar Temple) which culminated in a collective suicide. It was an unusual cult (secte) that appealed to a wealthy and educated elite. In Québec, there were actually several Hydro Québec engineers. Nuttiness, but also a swindle, as those who committed suicide (and killed their kids) had bequeathed their estates to the cult: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Solar_TempleAn aside: the journalists loved covering this story as the events all took place in ski resorts and spas in the Swiss and French Alps and the Québec Laurentians... Not exactly the rubber-chicken circuit.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 4, 2009 13:38:27 GMT
Truly weird. Après-ski instead of afterlife?
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Post by hwinpp on Jul 6, 2009 11:06:19 GMT
Agree with all above. What I have noticed is that Europeans tend to view these sects (include the Moonies, Children of God and a couple of others) completely differently from Americans. To me the American attitude is just too innocent. Look at the splinter off the Mormons that still condones poligamy. They'd be long gone in Europe by now.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 6, 2009 13:34:20 GMT
Yikes! If there were no polygamy, then I wouldn't have "Big Love" to watch!
Anyway, polygamy is not condoned by the official Mormon church, and is against the law in the US. It is simply impossible to police everyone who practices it, just as it's impossible to totally prevent all other forms of law-breaking.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2009 14:24:32 GMT
If the foundation of the US had not been based on protecting weird misfits from nasty European persecution, things might be different now. Europe seems to have survived, except for a few problems with fanaticism imported from other parts of the world where it flourishes unchecked.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 6, 2009 15:06:46 GMT
That would be weird misfits such as ............. the Quakers? ... the Huguenots? ... the Irish? ... all the impoverished peoples from southern Europe forced to look for a better existence because their own countries were run so poorly?
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Post by lagatta on Jul 6, 2009 16:13:48 GMT
Quakers and Huguenots, as well as the "Pilgrim Fathers" and other Puritans, among the so-called "misfits". Not the Irish; they were fleeing starvation. Later on their would be Mennonites, the "Old Religion" Orthodox etc.
There were also Jews fleeing anti-semitic persecution (Czarist pogroms and Nazi genocide) but I wouldn't put them in exactly the same class as the religious dissidents - many of the Jews weren't even particularly religious; anti semites didn't care as they hated all Jews, religious or not.
But then, we had our own genocides in the Americas...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2009 16:45:19 GMT
That would be weird misfits such as ............. the Quakers? ... the Huguenots? ... the Irish? ... all the impoverished peoples from southern Europe forced to look for a better existence because their own countries were run so poorly? Raised hackles do not become you, Bixa. Every immigrant who came to the US is not a weird misfit. Many have fled starvation and insane political regimes. I was thinking more of Puritans and other people who liked to live in complete mortification. I also cannot abide by people who allow their children to die because they refuse blood transfusions or other medical treatment. It is criminal.
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Post by spindrift on Jul 6, 2009 17:25:19 GMT
Yes indeed, the Irish were fleeing from persecution by the 'English and starvation during and after the Potato Famine.....a very black mark on the English....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2009 17:29:06 GMT
Thank god that Ireland is not in southern Europe or Bixa might say that the potato famine occurred because the country was run poorly. (Just trying to see if I can curl Bixa's hair a bit more in her photos.)
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Post by tillystar on Jul 6, 2009 17:43:56 GMT
But thats OK as I always understood the potato famine was the result of poor management/negligence by the English.
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Post by spindrift on Jul 6, 2009 17:54:12 GMT
Absolutely right, Tilly.....
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 6, 2009 18:02:48 GMT
I was taking exception to your sense of European intellectual superiority. I am sorry the sarcasm seemed to have gone over your head. It makes as much sense to brand the US as a loony bin because the Puritans settled there in the 1600s as it does to dismiss all of Europe because of the Spanish Inquisition.
In Canada & the US, children are sometimes taken into custody by state child protection services in order to circumvent their parents' ban on certain medical procedures. The Canadian Supreme Court recently dealt with just such a case.
Oh, why bother. I should just move to Europe, where everything is perfect.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jul 6, 2009 18:03:44 GMT
P.S. Thank you Tilly & Spindrift for getting my point.
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