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Post by spindrift on Jul 16, 2009 15:13:20 GMT
I will check them out, for sure!
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Post by rikita on Jul 17, 2009 19:48:47 GMT
good...
btw, both of them could be useful for learners of other languages too...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 18:12:03 GMT
I think I need to learn a non-European language, but it is hard for to decide between 'useful' and 'personal pleasure'.
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Post by lagatta on Jul 26, 2009 18:28:40 GMT
Yeah, I had been studying Arabic (and do beautiful calligraphy), but I had to concentrate on improving my Spanish in a hurry, so I pretty much dropped it. The problem at this stage of life is the balance between the time it would take to become fluent and the number of working years I can hope for. But learning languages is also important culturally and it is good for the brain.
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Post by htmb on Apr 23, 2016 13:30:22 GMT
It has always taken me a very long time to make the slightest bit of progress when studying another language or when learning mathematics. Supposedly the skills are related, so my struggle in both areas makes sense to me. As I have gotten older, it has become even harder, and I find I cannot easily memorize words taken out of context.
I have slogged my way through Duolingo for the past eight months without missing one day of online French exercises. It's been helpful. I've seen a bit of progress in my ability to read French and my vocabulary has increased. I've even learned a bit of grammar. I've also completed two different, ten-week classes with very patient teachers. The first course was almost a waste of time, since the other students were at a level less than mine. I made only the slightest bit of progress by taking the course. However, the teacher I've had this spring has been more than excellent, plus the other two students and I were about equal in our abilities. Unfortunately, we only met once per week.
I have one more class to attend, and I've just about maxed out Duolingo, so I'm trying to decide what to do next. Besides needing to learn more vocabulary and grammar, I also want to get better at understanding spoken French. I had always thought I'd enroll in classes at the university once I retired, but I won't be staying put long enough to do that in the foreseeable future.
Besides the obvious of immersing myself in the middle of French speaking people and watching a lot of French language shows, I believe I need to continue some sort of methodical, organized study; preferably something inexpensive.
This morning I found myself looking at the online version of Rosetta Stone. I am wondering if it would really be a good choice for me, or if I just want to prove to myself that my French has evolved a bit since I used the program a few years ago. I know how the program operates, and find it lacking in certain areas. I have also found another online program I thought was pretty good called KwizBot, but since I cannot use it on my tablet, it would be a waste of money to pay for the course.
I suppose I'll work out some sort of a plan by combining various resources into a daily routine for myself, but I'd love to hear suggestions.
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Post by whatagain on Apr 23, 2016 14:30:17 GMT
Believe it or not I made progress reading and interacting on forums. Maybe you could join a French forum that talks of gardening or something like that ? For pronunciation the best is to speak with natives. That is my excuse for my accent in English : I talk 99% of my time with non native.
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Post by breeze on Apr 23, 2016 15:08:45 GMT
I'm just here to commiserate with you, htmb. I also feel I'm not getting any better in spite of listening to podcasts and the Journal en francais facile at 70% speed, watching French TV shows, and reading a local newspaper online.
Often I comprehend some of it, though never completely, but I still can't produce.
Composing a short email in French takes me about an hour. Anytime I start a sentence, spoken or written, some gender or conjugation issue trips me up by the third word.
I have three weeks till our trip starts. Is there a synapse somewhere I could tap?
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Post by htmb on Apr 23, 2016 15:18:54 GMT
I feel your pain, Breeze!
Three weeks until your trip? That is exciting. I hope you will get a good, long visit.
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Post by breeze on Apr 23, 2016 22:51:43 GMT
Our trip is for four weeks. Not long enough. If previous trips are any indication, my language skills will be at their peak the first few days and go steadily downhill from there.
Over the next three weeks I should just come up with a list of the phrases we'll need most and get them down pat. If I could set them to music, they'd be more memorable.
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Post by htmb on Apr 23, 2016 23:04:28 GMT
One year I accidentally told a ticket seller I was ten years older than my real age (made no difference in the cost), and last year I described my eye problem to a hospital clerk, telling her it was like I was seeing flies in my range of vision. However, my abilities seem to improve during each trip so that I'm ready to continue my studies on return.
I bet you do much better with it than you claim. I like the idea of working on key phrases. I often look up vocabulary before I head into a situation so I will at least have a few sentences with with to communicate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 5:18:00 GMT
Floaters are called flies in French, so that would have been perfectly understood unless you weren't talking about floaters.
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Post by chexbres on Apr 24, 2016 8:01:21 GMT
I only had 2 years of high school French to my credit, taken back in 1968. When I was 40, I finally went to college and majored in French literature, but there was no conversation or grammar class available. So when I moved to Paris, and could only sputter out bits of phrases, I did the same thing as htmb and breeze, and looked up the vocabulary and grammar that I would need to get through the day. I would repeat everything out loud several times before leaving the house, too. If you do this correctly, your facial muscles should hurt by the time you're ready to go out. I make a point to read an entire newspaper every day - but in the beginning, it took me several days to work my way through one edition, using a dictionary. This is really good for the vocabulary, since many of the words and phrases you learned even a couple of years ago have probably evolved. Again, it's important to read out loud whenever you get the chance. Since you can borrow the papers at cafes, it doesn't cost you anything except a cup of coffee - unlike magazines, which are expensive and full of pictures. I think Le Parisien is the easiest, followed by Liberation. I leave the TV or talk radio on all the time - the words do get into your head eventually. If your TV has language options, you can watch an English program with French subtitles, and do a reverse translation. But I think it's best to leave French on as much as possible. French movies without subtitles can be difficult, because everyone speaks so fast. I try to avoid using the telephone, because again - people speak really too quickly - and also because I'm losing my hearing. This is coming in handy, though, because I can always point to my ear and ask someone to repeat themselves until I finally understand what they're saying If a waiter or salesperson starts speaking to you in English, just keep on speaking French - and don't let them get away with it.
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Post by whatagain on Apr 24, 2016 8:31:24 GMT
If a waiter or salesperson starts speaking to you in English, just keep on speaking French - and don't let them get away with it. So true ! I often switch to english when I hear someone struggling. If she/he keeps in french, I reverse to french. I rermember my first trip to UK : we were several schoolars and went to a local version of a McDo (the food was really bbrutal at school) I ordered a coca cola. Since we were learning english I spoke a nice long sentence. It was 'I would really like to have a big coke'. I didn't pronounce the last word correctely, and the girl behind the desk was dead from laughter. We had to be told why... I did the same later in Flemish...
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 10:55:43 GMT
Floaters are called flies in French, so that would have been perfectly understood unless you weren't talking about floaters. Seriously, Kerouac? I had no idea. Now I feel better about that little bit of communication. I studied Spanish in high school and college. I could get by speaking a little for awhile, but due to lack of use it all faded away. I never had much exposure to French and didn't try learning until just a few years ago. I feel like I'm at the point where it's still a "secret code" that others know, and I don't. I believe, until I can get to a point where I'm thinking more in French, rather than translating in my head, it will continue to be a struggle. I'd like it to feel more like a natural way to communicate. I know that will take time and lots of work. When listening to radio, television, and films, there are just so many sounds that my ears do not recognize. Even if I know and understand a particular word, that doesn't mean I'll be able to pick it out and recognize the sound of it within the context of a normal French conversation.
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Post by breeze on Apr 24, 2016 12:24:06 GMT
All this advice helps. I'll try anything.
A friend encouraged me by saying that even a French baby doesn't talk until two, and so until I've spent two years in France I shouldn't expect to speak the language.
Even in my native language I have trouble listening. It's worse in another language, of course.
In a stream of French speech I'll recognize a word but not connect with its meaning right away, even though I "know" it, and while the stream flows on, I'm still puzzling over "d'ou" and missing every word that follows.
We walked into a restaurant and the very young waiter said "Dehors?" That stumped us till his dad, the chef, came out and led us...to a table outdoors. We knew the word on paper, but not on hearing it. "Ris de veau" led us to a delicious dish, but I ordered thinking it was rice pilaf. I was successfully making a dinner reservation over the phone, when at the end the woman said "non" What--after all my struggles it turns out we don't have a reservation? She was asking "Nom?" and I even didn't get the interrogative lilt.
I think it's time I listened to a podcast--maybe at 60% speed. The woman who does "One thing in a French day" has a charming voice at any speed.
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Post by chexbres on Apr 24, 2016 13:15:46 GMT
Just as you don't translate word-by-word, because it often doesn't make any sense that way, you have to train your ear and mind to recognize phrases, instead. Groups of words are really more common, and that's what you should try to wrap your brain around when listening to someone speak. For a long while, I felt as if my ears were growing long stalks - like tulips or something - just so they could catch every possible sound.
My French is pretty decent, but I've been here for 8 years. I understand 97% of what's said to me, but didn't feel really comfortable trying to hold up my end of a conversation until I'd been here about 5 years. At first, my American accent was the problem, but now I'm always taken for an English person - which is distinct progress, I suppose.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 13:21:19 GMT
Thanks for the tip, Breeze. I listen to lots of human interest-type podcasts in English, but have not cared for the one I had subscribed to in French. I plan to give the one a try.
I saw that Rosetta Stone was on special offer. I went ahead and renewed my subscription, so that's something else for me to be working with, too.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 13:24:09 GMT
Chexbres, I probably hear/understand about 90% of what's said to me in English, so now have even more admiration for your language abilities!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 13:24:54 GMT
One good thing for people learning French in Paris is that the main cinema chains, particularly UGC, have at least two showings a week of French movies with French subtitles for the hearing impaired.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 24, 2016 13:32:21 GMT
just here to commiserate with you, htmb. I also feel I'm not getting any better.....I have three weeks till our trip starts. Is there a synapse somewhere I could tap? Comprehending is much more useful than speaking French, IMO. As soon as your first sentence in French escapes your lips, people will speak English to you.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 13:39:41 GMT
I think that's really helpful. Some of the time I dislike having English subtitles now, because I don't feel that helps me to progress; but if I can change to French subtitles when watching a French show on television, it makes it much easier to follow the dialogue while still learning. I also like to watch French films I already know and totally switch off the subtitles. Then I force myself to really listen to the dialogue. Some films are easier than others. I tried last week with La Vie en Rose, but the dialogue is so fast and, of course, the story is so sad, I gave up about a third of the way into it. I'd like to try seeing a good film in a Paris cinema. That's one thing I've never done, though for three years I stayed in an apartment on rue Champollion where there were cinemas just a short stroll down the street. Do French cinemas still have usherettes, or has that tradition totally died out?
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 13:49:58 GMT
Kimby, that has not been my experience. Yes, many French people can and will speak English, but you can't count on everyone. While many French people I've encountered probably know a little English, they are often just as befuddled as I am when it comes to communicating. Besides, when I'm in France, I expect to communicate in French. That IS the language of the country.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 14:07:19 GMT
just here to commiserate with you, htmb. I also feel I'm not getting any better.....I have three weeks till our trip starts. Is there a synapse somewhere I could tap? Comprehending is much more useful than speaking French, IMO. As soon as your first sentence in French escapes your lips, people will speak English to you. Kimby, you're joking again, right?
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Post by Kimby on Apr 24, 2016 14:49:51 GMT
I'm unintentionally funny.
The first sentence out of MY mouth in a foreign language convinces native speakers that their English is light-years better than my Spanish/French/Italian. However, if they speak SLOWLY, I can usually figure out what we're talking about.
Mr. Kimby gets bogged down trying to interpret every word. I listen for key words that I recognize and make mental leaps from one to the next to get the gist. Context helps, too. At a hotel desk, there are only so many things you are likely to be asked. And people wihose jobs involve dealing with foreigners generally learn the necessary phrases in English. Especially those with something to sell!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 14:52:55 GMT
Do French cinemas still have usherettes, or has that tradition totally died out? The ushers in cinemas disappeared more than 30 years ago.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 15:52:58 GMT
Good, cause I rarely, if ever, tip in France.
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Post by htmb on Apr 24, 2016 16:06:06 GMT
As for communicating in another language, all I can do is try. Context does help, Kimby, that's for sure. However, some of my most memorable conversations have been with totally random people, like the maintenance worker I shared a moment with along the canal in the Parc de la Villette, and the gentleman waiting for a bus at the Place de la Republic. Neither spoke any English, but they did their best to understand my French, to simplify their questions, and to pursue a little conversation.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 24, 2016 18:00:07 GMT
I do OK conversing in Spanish. With 5-year-olds. Their parents meanwhile are trying not to laugh at me...
Some of my most memorable discussions have been carried out totally in ad hoc sign language. Like the brief chat with an ancient Yao woman in Guangdong Province China who "told" me her husband was dead by shaking her head sadly when I pointed to my wedding band and raised my eyebrows while pointing to her.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 24, 2016 18:25:17 GMT
Or maybe she was saying that she was dumped at the altar, or perhaps simply was a disappointed spinster.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 24, 2016 18:50:26 GMT
Or maybe she was saying that she was dumped at the altar, or perhaps simply was a disappointed spinster. Nope, definitely widowed. That's my story and I'm stickin to it!
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