Refugees from Afghanistan

[Deleted]

They say that the United Kingdom is a paradise for refugees. Everything is possible there -- all you have to do is arrive and you quickly receive papers that let you work, give you medical treatment, allow you to go to school and of course stay and make a new rich life there.

Never having been a refugee myself, I don't know how much of it is true, but one thing that I do know is that determination can get anybody from Asia or Africa or the rest of Europe to the last shore from which they can look at the UK, because alas, it is an island. It might take months to cross continents, but it is the last few kilometers that are the killer.

The worst problem is at the last stop, Calais. The Red Cross used to have an enormous refugee camp there, but it was closed several years ago, and now there is no official housing for all of the people who try to sneak onto ferries or on trucks going through the Channel Tunnel each and every night.

Do you know what you have to do if you manage to sneak in the back of a truck with all the cargo? At the final security check, you have to put a plastic bag over your head to suffocate yourself, because the authorities stick sensors into the back of the truck to detect carbon dioxide. More than one person has died this way, but the stowaways are usually found before any vehicle enters the tunnel.

The closing of the refugee center and the majority of refugee services in Calais was meant to discourage refugees from staying there. What has actually happened is the creation of 'The Jungle,' a wooded marshy area where these people are camped out in the most deplorable conditions.

These photographs of the jungle are not mine. There are endless series available on the internet.

In the warm months, it is possible to survive there, because lots of people provide food and other necessary items. But winter is arriving and all of the rampant diseases are going to get worse.

A lot of the Afghans, mostly teenaged boys, have been convinced to "settle" in Paris, perhaps thinking that they will just board a Eurostar train some day. They are camped out near the Gare du Nord, in any dark corner they can find. For several months, they were living in a park along the Canal Saint Martin, but they were expelled three weeks ago, because a small park is not meant to be a dormitory for more than 300 people. The youngest ones have been sent to foyers and some of the others have accepted some limited places in emergency sleeping quarters. But most refuse, because they can't stand the promiscuity with the traditional homeless with alcohol and drug problems.

So they are sleeping out on the street, or under bridges, or for example, at this closed service station.

That's a very small location, so a lot more are sleeping along the canal.

The police come to wake them up and make them move before 9 am so that Paris will look deceptively pretty for the tourists. There are places and times when food is delivered, but most of the early morning is spent walking around or sitting in groups, trying to warm up.

   

Later, they go and hang out at the park where they are not allowed to sleep anymore. It is the only place they know to go. It's hard to make big plans when you're only 16 or 17 years old.

They use the little football area quite a lot. Boys need to play.

But mostly they just hang out, day after day after day...

They've added a few temporary toilets just outside the park, but it is not a proper life for human beings, especially children.

I wish I knew what I could do to help. One thing that I do know, is that they don't appreciate being photographed!

[spindrift]

Perhaps some of us should adopt Afghan children....

[Deleted]

So sad. I wish I could do something to help too, but what? The amount of suffering in this world never ceases to amaze me. The divide between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' also never ceases to amaze me either. People shouldn't have to live like this, especially teenagers, kids...

Spindrift, I have always wanted to adopt a little girl, (since I don't have a daughter), probably from India, but have no idea how easy or difficult it would be to do. Maybe I might be more help by actually going there and seeing what I can do to help while I'm there...

Kerouac, let us know if you learn any more about the plight of these young men.

[Deleted]

At least they are not being blown to pieces or indoctrinated in Afghanistan. I guess that is better than nothing.

[lagatta]

I can't really see "adopting" a teenager, and most of them have some family back home, except in cases where entire extended families or villages have been blown up either by the Western alliance or the Taliban (or other forces). But I guess as kerouac says, under current conditions most wouldn't be going to school now in Afghanistan anyway.

Most of those young men look remarkably well-groomed for the circumstances they are living in.

I've worked on refugee issues and on that of torture survivors, and a lot of torture-survivor refugees did find themselves in shelters along with mentally-ill and/or violent addict residents, which was not a help in their recovery.

Now that it is Ramadan, I hope they can find a friendly iftar that will feed them copiously (while not trying to involve them in fundamentalist politics)...

[Deleted]

When I see how they are dressed, I think there must be some very generous donations from clothing companies or an association that gets excellent prices -- and they all seem to be wearing new athletic shoes as well, although perhaps not the name brands.

I live next to the headquarters of "France Terre d'Asile" and I know that they receive bags with all of the toiletry necessities from there. Also, our socialist mayor made all of the municipal baths free of charge when he came to office, so anybody who wants to remain clean can do so (that it unfortunately not true in Calais).

[lagatta]

Where are the municipal baths in your arrondissement? Do all arrondissements and towns in greater Paris have these? Can anyone use them?

Calais now looks utterly dreadful. Damp, nasty winters there. Not as cold as ours of course, but a breeding gorund for TB aand pneumonia.

I'm glad they get some kind of aid in the form of donations from clothing companies or canny associations, but still, kudos to these young men for taking such good care of themselves.

But I hope there can be some kind of future for them somewhere, involving education/training and meaningful work - and some kind of family ties, whether their blood family or recomposed/chosen family.

kerouac, well you know as well as I do that not everyone makes it to France or other continental European countries. I'm more familiar with the perillous crossings from Africa - and "Eurasia" is actually a land mass, though there are a lot of barriers and often a sea crossing is the easiest way. Do understand that the UK is a particular case.

[bjd]

Has anyone seen Michael Winterbottom's film "In this world"? It gives an idea of what these guys go through to get from Afghanistan to Calais.

There was an article in a recent International Herald Tribune about young Afghans living in a park in Paris -- in the 9th, I think.

[Deleted]

Yes, I saw "In This World" -- as well as the French film "Welcome" which shows life for the Afghans in Calais. I think there would be a lot of changes in public opinion if it became obligatory to see films like this.

[bixaorellana]

This situation is immeasurably sad and Kerouac's commentary has moved the photos from the realm of loitering foreign men to that of lost boys with no way home.

Probably one of the reasons those kids look relatively okay is because they're wearing the universal uniform of jeans and jacket, some of which they probably brought with them in their backpacks. As the winter wears on, they'll undoubtedly get grubbier looking and thus even more marginalized. What strikes me is how many of them are sitting and walking in that hunched way that indicates being too cold.

Searching online, it is hard to find recent solid news stories that present an overview of the situation. Here is the page of hits from Google News: news.google.com/news/search?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=refugees+calais

I thought the article below presented the most complete picture, although those of you with more knowledge of the situation may have much to add. It is from very early July. The google link has some more recent stories.

=====================================================================
Hatnews - www.hatnews.org

The UN in Calais:Can it resolve the refugee problem?

By Robert Verkaik

Why are we asking this now?

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) is formally establishing a full-time presence in the French port. The agency’s staff will help migrants, refugees and asylum-seekers negotiate the French and British immigration systems. But the focus will be on assisting those who want to request asylum in France. The UN has had a part-time presence in Calais since early June and, as of yesterday, that has been increased to five days a week. The UNHCR says it is important that those people fleeing persecution and war have free access to “unbiased” information so that they know they can claim asylum in Calais. Part of the purpose of the renewed mission is to protect migrants and asylum-seekers from the misinformation given to them by traffickers.

How many refugees are living in Calais?

An estimated 1,600 refugees and migrants are camped outside Calais, a fifth of them children. But the current situation in France is a far cry from the Sangatte encampment, which saw 68,000 people pass through its vast halls between 1998 and 2002. The camp was designed to hold about 900 refugees, but the Red Cross said numbers peaked at about 2,000. Sangatte was closed in 2002 after a deal was struck by the then home secretary, David Blunkett, and his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy, who is now the President.

What are the conditions like in the camps?

Pretty squalid. There is no proper provision of even basic facilities, and refugees scavenge or rely on charity hand-outs. On 13 June, a young Eritrean drowned in a Calais canal after he went there to wash. Most of refugees live in appaling conditions in a shanty town constructed in the woods near the Channel Tunnel, commonly known as “The Jungle”. Last month, two of the camps, which had been used by 100 migrants, were levelled by French bulldozers.

Who is living there?

According to the international charity Médecins Sans Frontières, the majority arrive from countries such as Afghanistan, Somalia or Palestine and are fleeing war, violence, hunger and extreme hardship. The recent unrest in Pakistan and Iran has also increased numbers. Many have made long and perilous journeys. In a desperate bid to escape their plights, some have paid money to traffickers to get them to Britain, where they may have relatives. The traffickers often lie about the true legal position in France and Britain.

What do locals think of the camps?

The sentiment in Calais could be best summed up as “not in my back yard”. The local tourism industry and many businesses are opposed to the camps because there is a strong perception that the refugee problem deters people from visiting the French port. They blame Britain for not doing enough to discourage asylum seekers. The UNHCR describes relations between the refugees and the people of Calais as “tense”. Recent years have seen protest marches about the situation.

What would happen if the French authorities were to close them?

The lesson of Sangatte shows that emptying the camps would not stop immigrants and refugees coming to stay at the French ports. When Sangatte was shut, it took only a few months before more refugees came back to the town to find makeshift, alternative accommodation. Closing the camps would simply result in a displacement of the immigrants, making it even more difficult to monitor them. The job of policing the immigrants is made much easier by having a designated refugee camp.

Why don’t the refugees want to stay in France?

There is a perception that the French immigration rules are much stricter than the British ones, and so some refugees pin all their hopes on applying for asylum in the UK. But many more refugees want to come to Britain because they believe they have a genuine claim for asylum. Some are Iraqis or Afghans who have worked with British forces during the occupation of their countries and now fear persecution because they are treated as collaborators. Others have been tortured or raped. A study by Smain Laacher, a French sociologist, found that nearly 90 per cent of the Iraqi Kurds and Tajiks or Pashtuns from Afghanistan were reasonably well educated and had saved the equivalent of several years’ wages to pay for the journey. It begs an obvious question: what terrors did they leave behind to prefer to spend their lives in a makeshift camp with no sanitation?

What does the law say?

Under the Dublin convention, a refugee is supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country through which he or she travels, and an EU member state may return an asylum seeker to that country. The convention is a treaty between EU members which came into force in September 1997. Under the treaty, a member state is responsible for handling an asylum application if a member of the asylum-seeker’s family has been given refugee status in that country, or if a refugee has been granted a visa or residence permit for that country. A member state is also responsible if the refugee has been able to enter its territory because of poor border controls or has been allowed to enter without a visa.

What are Britain and France doing to stop immigrants from crossing the Channel?

The two governments are currently discussing the creation of a new immigrant holding centre within the British side of the Calais docks. This would be more institutionalised than Sangatte and would allow both immigration authorities to send illegal immigrants home more easily. Nearly 20,000 illegal attempts by immigrants to enter Britain were thwarted by the UK Border Authority in Calais last year, compared with 7,500 in 2004. A further 9,000 were stopped in Coquelle, Paris and in Dunkirk, Belgium. It is not known how many more immigrants succeeded in outwitting border guards. Phil Woolas, the Border and Immigration minister, says: “Last year alone, UK Border Agency staff at our French and Belgium controls not only searched more than one million lorries but also stopped 28,000 attempts to cross the Channel illegally. The illegal migrants in France are not queuing to get into Britain – they have been locked out.”

What are the alternatives to the current policies?

The options tend to fall between two extremes. One is to open up Europe’s borders, forcing other European states taking their fair share of immigrants, so that there is a free flow of immigrants. After several years, migration across continents and countries might even out. In Greece, for example, 99.9 per cent of all asylum claimants are rejected, with similarly high rejection rates in Slovenia. With such low refugee recognition rates across parts of southern and eastern Europe, there is little incentive for persons who think they may have legitimate asylum claims to break off from the people traffickers and claim asylum while en route. The other extreme option would be to stop all immigrants from entering Britain. This would contravene EU and international law and end Britain’s long and proud record as a place for those seeking sanctuary from all kinds of persecution.

Would closing the camps stop illegal immigrants from entering Britain?

Yes…

* The camps in northern France actually act as a magnet for illegal immigrants from across the world who want to come to the British Isles

* Human traffickers would not be able to trawl the camps for victims

* Without anywhere to live, the immigrants would soon enough return to their homelands

No…

* Closure would simply displace any illegal immigrants and refugees – the problem would not go away

* The majority of residents in the camps are genuine asylum-seekers and not illegal immigrants

* The best way to stop illegal immigrants is to tighten up Britain’s border controls

This article first appeared in The Independent July 02, 2009.

URL to article: www.hatnews.org/2009/07/03/the-un-in-calaiscan-it-resolve-the-refugee-problem/

Copyright © 2009 Hatnews. All rights reserved.

[lagatta]

Some of the news stories are available at the site of France Terre d'asile, the refugee aid association kerouac mentioned (I'd also been there, as well as to an association that assists torture victimes and to libraries to read up on labour and migration history - I know, not the Parisian stuff most visitors do.

Here is a NYTimes story: www.france-terre-asile.org/index.php/component/content/article/1270 (there is also a story in French from Le Monde).

The International Herald Tribune story is basically the same as NYTimes': organised a bit differently and with a few more details: www.france-terre-asile.org/images/stories/pdf/presse/inthertrib-youngafghan-26-07-2009.pdf

For those who read French, an article from slate.fr: www.france-terre-asile.org/index.php/component/content/article/1272

[Deleted]

That is a pretty accurate article, Bixa except for this shocking event: A further 9,000 were stopped in Coquelle, Paris and in Dunkirk, Belgium.

The last time I drove through Dunkerque (Dunkirk), it was still in France. And the town of Coquelles had not lost its s.

[bixaorellana]

I hate that in news articles. It really throws the accuracy and fact-checking of all the rest of it into doubt. So, thanks for corroborating that it's mostly correct.

The article talks about misinformation by traffickers, but I imagine some of that wrong info is "common knowledge". In the time I've lived here, naïveté about going to the US to work has lessened, but obviously there are people still going across that northern border to the "land of opportunity".

As pointed out in the OP, many of the refugees probably thought their troubles would be over once they reached France and caught transportation to England. In circumstances where lives are at stake, such as in Afghanistan, you can imagine families doing what they can to help their sons escape to another country, particularly when laboring under the belief that their lives will greatly improve there.

[Deleted]

"Once you get to Europe, you can go anywhere. They don't control the borders."

Big myth.

[Deleted]

Countdown to destruction at French migrant camp
By ELAINE GANLEY (AP)

CALAIS, France — Hijrat Hotak's parents sold the family home in Afghanistan, paying a smuggler $15,000 (euro10,200.61) to help buy a bright future in Britain for their 15-year-old son.

Instead, after a long, perilous journey, he lives in "The Jungle," a squalid encampment in Calais where Hotak and hundreds of other hungry migrants nourish dreams of sneaking across the English Channel.

And even that will not last.

Hotak's humble shelter here will be gone within days, when the camp will be razed by French authorities who see it as a public-health nightmare, a haven for human traffickers and a point of contention with the British, who want the border to their country better sealed.

But critics say the effort to stop it through destruction is futile. They point to the dismantling in 2002 of a Red Cross-run camp in nearby Sangatte, which had been used by illegal migrants as a springboard for sneaking across the Channel in freight trains and trucks. The migrants kept coming back even after the camp was shut down.

Britain is viewed as an easier place than France to make a life, even clandestinely, a view perpetuated by traffickers and family members or friends already there. Calais became a magnet for migrants a decade ago when refugees from the war in Kosovo flocked here; today, it is a magnet for Afghans. That Afghan migrants sometimes speak at least broken English makes Britain all the more attractive.

French Immigration Minister Eric Besson announced plans earlier this year to dismantle the camp. Last Wednesday, he said it would be razed by the end of the following week.

"This is a lawless zone and a logistical base for smugglers," Besson said on French TV. "We say that no one will be getting across the Channel from Calais."

Some migrants refuse to believe their risky, and costly, journeys to France were for naught. They hope that Britain or France will have a change of heart and take them in, or that the destruction will simply be called off.

"We are afraid, we are scared. But this is better than other places," said another Afghan, Mohammad Bashir, 24, who claimed he had been held last year by the Taliban but escaped.

Scores of makeshift tents built from sticks and sheets of plastic sprout from the sand and brush in the camp. Piles of garbage litter the scrubland.

The illegal migrants, mainly Afghan men and boys and some as young as 14, bake flat bread over a fire in a tin drum. The only amenities are a spigot of water at the entrance, a homemade toilet hidden behind plastic and, in a scrupulously cleared area, a mosque made of blue tarp and ringed with pots of flowers.

Smaller camps scattered about the region shelter Iraqi Kurds or illegal migrants from other trouble spots.

France's immigration minister has promised to offer options to migrants. If they leave voluntarily, they can get a stipend. If they meet the profile, they can demand asylum in France. Otherwise, they are to be expelled.

The migrants try to elude the elaborate border security network, complete with heat sensors and infrared cameras, at the port and the Channel tunnel that carries the Eurostar trains and other undersea traffic. Nearly a decade ago, many thousands made it across by hopping a ride to Britain. Today only a few make it, but enough to sustain hope.

French authorities have not said when they will move in, but a half-dozen border police exiting the camp Saturday said they had been counting heads.

Some 800 migrants were in the main camp as of June, officials say. However, the number has since dwindled to about 300, leading to speculation that border police have been turning a blind eye to illegal crossings to make it easier to clear out the jungle.

"Even if the jungle is shut down tomorrow, migrants will continue to arrive," said Jacky Verhaegen of aid group Secours Catholique. "Migrants are already en route, in Greece, in Italy, in Turkey. I don't think they'll stop in their tracks. Their goal is Britain."

Philippe Blet, president of the Calais region, said, "We are in a surrealistic and incomprehensible situation."

He criticized a 2004 accord signed by President Nicolas Sarkozy, then interior minister, which authorized deployment of British immigration officers in Calais and Dunkirk.

"Today, the British border is effectively in Calais," Blet said.

In the encampment, tales abound of journeys by foot, in trucks and boats to reach Calais and of efforts to slip inside or under trucks crossing the Channel only to be tripped up by high-tech equipment or sniffed out by a dog.

But hope remains despite the announced crackdown.

"My family said you go to England and make your future by hard studying," said Hotak, who comes from Laghman province, where Taliban and U.S. forces have clashed. "My family is old. They said our life is finished ... You make our future."

Though the adolescent showed visitors his shelter, he refused to be photographed because "if my mother sees this is my home, she will cry."

For Blet, such reactions are normal. Young migrants often set off for the West with the family's blessing and "it's an honor," he said. "He will save the family. He has a mandate."

But in Calais, "They are all 40 kilometers (24.86 miles) from happiness. That's the real drama."

[Deleted]

With Scuffles, French Police Evict Migrants

CALAIS, France — Advancing at daybreak, French police rapidly encircled a camp outside this English Channel port on Tuesday to round up almost 300 Afghans, Pakistanis and other undocumented migrants who have gathered for years in the hope of making clandestine journeys across 22 miles of water to Britain.

Migrants, many from Afghanistan and Pakistan, gathered Monday in the “jungle” camp in Calais, France. The authorities plan to start shutting the camp this week.

The number of migrants staying in tents and shanties swelled to around 1,400 in August.

Hundreds of officers in dark blue uniforms scuffled with migrants and campaigners from a group called No Borders as the authorities closed down the camp, known as “the jungle” by migrants and Calais residents alike for its location among the thorn bushes and sand dunes of Calais.

The makeshift camp, with its huts and a mosque made of packing crates, blankets and tarpaulins, grew after the closure of a Red Cross shelter for migrants in nearby Sangatte in late 2002. The continued presence of migrants on the northern French coast has been an irritant to Britain, which is determined to halt their unauthorized passage through the port.

The operation on Tuesday, in which hundreds of riot police officers were deployed, had been loudly signaled by the authorities, and many migrants slipped away before the raid. Of those who remained, some were led away in tears.

With migrants outnumbered by 500 riot police, the half-hour operation began at 7:40 a.m. under the gaze of 200 waiting journalists, who watched police drag or escort away the mainly Afghan migrants who had gathered in silence under a banner written in Pashto and English declaring: “The jungle is our house, please don’t destroy it — if you do so then where is the place to go?”

The immigration minister, Eric Besson, defended the operation on RTL radio Tuesday.

“This is not a humanitarian camp. It’s a base for people traffickers,” he said.

No Borders campaigners on the scene shouted “No border, no nation, stop deportations.”

Khaled Hadarhy, a 21-year-old Afghan, was rounded up along with two friends of 16 and 17. “We are all young but we look old because the jungle has made us old,” said Mr. Hadarhy, a former policeman from Helmand Province who has been in Calais for four months.

“The police will come and we will do what they tell us,” said Exel Palav, 20, from Afghanistan.

Pierre Bousquet, the prefect of the Pas de Calais region, told reporters that the operation had gone well. “We arrested 146 adults and 142 minors,” he said, adding that the adults were being interviewed by police.

The move to eliminate the tents and ramshackle housing around the port is designed to halt migrants without papers from getting into Britain, and to crack down on the smuggling networks that assist them.

“Smugglers will not lay down the law,” the immigration minister, Mr. Besson, said last Wednesday. He first announced the plan to dismantle the camp in April, responding to complaints from local businesses.

The closure took place as European countries increasingly use force to crack down on unwanted migrants. On July 12, Greece eliminated a makeshift camp in the port city of Patras; in May, Italy struck a controversial accord with Libya allowing it to turn back migrants’ boats in the Mediterranean. The European Union estimates that 500,000 people cross its borders without papers each year.

The number of migrants in the camp swelled to around 1,400 in August, according to Vincent Lenoir at Salam, an aid group whose volunteers have operated a soup kitchen for the migrants for seven years. But the number dropped to under 300, Mr. Bousquet said, in part because officials have swept some of the areas where they gather.

Frustrated at the difficulties of getting to Britain — attractive because of its large communities of Africans and South Asians and its underground economy — more migrants are now trying to reach Scandinavia, according to asylum data from the United Nations refugee agency and national ministries.

On Monday, migrants in Calais said that they were aware of the imminent police crackdown but that they were unsure what they should do. Many said that they had fled strife in Afghanistan, Eritrea, Pakistan and Iran, and that they had nowhere else to turn.

Mohammed Bashir, 24, a teacher from Logar Province in Afghanistan, said he had been at the camp for a month. “Let the police come,” he said. “Where are we going to run? There is nowhere to go.”

Moustafa Tcharminian, a 38-year-old from Tehran, moved from the camp to under a bridge recently. He said that closing the camp would have an impact on the migrants now in Calais because they would be put in detention or deported. But he insisted that it would have little impact on the smugglers. “The smugglers are in love with money,” he said. “They will keep sending people and lying to them, telling them to go.”

Asked whether the closing of the Calais camp would send migrants elsewhere in Europe, Mr. Bousquet, the official, conceded that the issue of how to deal with the migrants was a broader problem. “I am at the end of the chain,” he said.

Interviews with residents of Calais, which has seen migrants flock to the region since Poles came to work in mines in the 1920s, indicated that few believed that a police action would put an end to clandestine arrivals in the port, from which England is visible across the water.

“They’re only taking the problem somewhere else,” said Fabrice Lecoustre, 52, a cafe owner in the center of the city. “Where are they going to go now? Downtown? At least in Sangatte they had showers and toilets.”

Nadim Audi reported from Calais, France, and Caroline Brothers from Paris.
from the New York Times

[traveler63]

Just finished reading this threrad and Live CNN, is just now going thru the subject. It is really sad to see people having to live this way.

[lola]

Wow.

I had no idea. Enlist them in some sort of Job Corps, put them to work, aiming towards citizenship rights? So difficult.

[fumobici]

I'm not a fan of national borders, I've come to believe people should be free to travel and live wherever in the world they want though I realize it would be a burden on the rich countries. The Western countries have become like the gated communities inside poor countries where the poor are kept out of the rich's view by force. I'm not sure having these wealthy enclaves in a poor world is a healthy or moral thing. There are just no sufficient incentives to improve the lot of the majority of people when you are so insulated from their suffering.

RAI Uno did a feature on the destruction of the camps at Calais today as well.

[hwinpp]

+Well, there are two sides to the medal.

Sure you could let all the 'poor' in that made it, but would all the 'poor' countries let people from 'rich' countries in unlimited? Would they be allowed to buy land unlimited? Open businesses, etc., etc?
What would happen to a small nation that just got absorbed? Where's the diversity? People cry about languages being lost at an alarming rate, why don't they care as much for native tribes in the third world by putting borders up?

You've got to find a balance and objectivity gets lost in such an emotion- laden situation.

Latest bit in Africa was when the refugees from Zimbabwe were prevented from crossing into South Africa. I understand the South Africans completely.

Gadaffi just told the world Africa wants 7.7 trillion USD as compensation for everything bad that has happened to it.
I say give it to them and then let them start cleaning up their own back yard.

Will that give Europe and the western hemisphere reprieve?

[Deleted]

To me, the silly part is that Europe is in bad need of immigrants due to the aging population, but they can't make up their mind which ones they want, since not enough blond-haired blue-eyed immigrants seem to be knocking at the door.

[fumobici]

They don't really seem to even want blond haired blue eyed immigrants as far as I can tell.

[lagatta]

Well, certain towns in Veneto (the region of Venice, Verona, Padova etc) were deliberately recruiting Argentines of VENETIAN descent - they didn't even want those swarthy Southern Italians (terroni)...

Italy has a particularly acute case of ageing population, as its birthrate is very very low. (Our birthrate here in Québec was also extremely low for the same reason of throwing off the strictures of a very conservative Catholic Church, but natalist measures copied from France (tax incentives and generous parental leaves, virtually free public or public-supervised daycare) have done more than a bit to increase the birthrate here of late.

There are problems integrating immigrants; if they are in a profession in which they have to speak the language of the host country fluently they need courses, they may need upgrading or adjustment to conform to the practices in professions, trades or business milieux in the new country, and in some cases there can be social tensions, but on the other hand the host country is saving a great deal of investment in general education from childhood to university or technical trade school, and usually choosing people without serious health problems, serious criminal records etc. In that sense migrants are a resource transfer to the richer countries.

The major source of blond, blue eyed migrants is of course the former Soviet Union and other Central and Eastern European countries.

[hwinpp]

Yes.

Of course they need immigrants. Germany made a half- hearted attempt at recruiting IT specialists from India but gave up in the mid 90s. Stupid.

They're losing their own professionals to Norway, Switzerland or Canada...

Re blond, blue- eyed immigrants, the Germans did just that, the people of German descent from the east bloc, Romania, Russia, Kazakhstan. But then they neglected to follow up with educational programmes so now all Germans from the east are "Russen", usually spat out with vehemence.

Turks on the other hand, that have been in Germany for 3 generations, are treated so badly the qualified people that should be held at all costs, are leaving the country.

I don't know how people can be so short- sighted.

[bixaorellana]

Whereas I understand Besson's stance that allowing in undocumented immigrants is an encouragement to the smugglers, there is something ironic about "detaining" the refugees they rounded up. With winter on the way, detention will be safer and more comfortable than living in a tent.

If France is to be feeding and housing the refugees anyway, perhaps some multi-national program should be set up to keep one country from bearing all the burden. If there were some sort of program in place, with "entry centers" on different countries' borders, there would be far fewer refugees clumping on the French coast with a view towards entering England illegally. This would also allow refugees to be vetted for legal entry to various European nations, thus setting the stage for legal immigrants to sponsor family members back home to join them. Those sponsored would not have to resort to smugglers, thus striking one blow against that illegal industry. There are undoubtedly NGOs able to act as liaisons between sponsoring European countries and people wishing to flee their homelands, thus further creating a situation where smugglers would be cut out of the action.

[Deleted]

The main reason that most of the refugees prefer to live out in the wild or at least out of any official structure is because the EU has a rule that refugees must apply for asylum at their first point of entry in the EU. For most of them, that is Greece, Malta, Italy or Poland -- countries where they absolutely do not want to stay and which want them even less. Most of the Afghan refugees are not afraid that they will sent back to Afghanistan, because France said it would not do that, but they are afraid they will be sent to Greece.

[bixaorellana]

Well, if some kind of multi-national system of processing refugees were inaugurated, that rule would certainly have to be addressed. Otherwise nothing would change.

[fumobici]

What would their residency status be then in Greece? And what would their prospects be for legal EU citizenship?

Can I request asylum from the land of rednecks and SUVs? ;D

[lagatta]

Fumobici, these days Greece has a very sorry record in terms of how it treats refugees. The refugees do fear eventually being "refoulé" - pushed back - to Afghanistan or somewhere in that area.

[Deleted]

I was fascinated to just reread this thread. Absolutely nothing has changed since two years ago. Damn it!