The Roma people - where do they come from?

[Deleted]

The Romanies or Gypsies as they are sometimes known have fascinated me ever since I can remember. But where do they actually come from, and why did they leave their own country to move such vast distances?

I've come in contact with traveling people personally many times. The first time was back in India. Here is an actual account of what I saw as a child:

As some of you know I was born in a rural village in Northern India, the youngest of six children. I spent the first five years of my life there.

Sometimes the gypsies would come to our little village to entertain us, for donations. My mother always warned me never, ever to go near them. They were known for kidnapping young girls. They used these girls to dance and help make money for them. Or so I was told.

But I was too curious for my own good. So when I heard that the gypsies were coming to our village, I ran to the caravans as fast as I could. And there I saw this amazing show. I sat on the floor crossed legged and watched. The girls were dressed in beautiful, colorful dresses and they danced to the kind of music I hadn't heard before. They twirled and their dresses twirled with them, sequences shinning in the sun.

I was only used to the temple bells every morning, or the songs that rural people passed down through the generations. I was completely lost in the excitement of it all until I saw my mother coming, angry as anything towards me. She pulled me away from them and warned me of what could happen to little girls who didn't listen and insisted on watching such shameless gypsy girls, displaying themselves in such a way.

[Deleted]

And I learnt a bit more about them when living in the UK a few years back.

Here's an interesting article about the origins of the Roma People:

www.helium.com/items/1565298-the-history-of-gypsy-or-roma-population

Quote:

The origins and history of Roma population is still disputed and often confusing. There are several theories about their homeland and who is Roma and who is not. This disagreement can be found among Roma themselves.

Commonly called gypsy, Roma are known as a nomadic group originated in north-west of India and north-east of Pakistan. This population has been very composite from the beginning with various ethnic components brought together during their initial great migration. This first wave started around 5th century when they reached Iran and Mediterranean Sea. From there, they entered the Byzantine Empire and later in Europe. Their migration in south - east and central Europe took place between 10th and 14th century. From here, they extended to western Europe, specially in Spain and by 19th century in North and South America.

I know that Prince Charles did a through T.V. show on this subject some years back, I can't seem to find it at the moment. Here's a map of the suggested route that the Roma people took:



It's interesting that the article mentions that the traveling people come from the North West of India, that is the same region where I come from and where I have seen them on some occasions. The last time I visited India, I saw quite a few on the way from Delhi to the Punjab. They don't look completely Indian any more either, more a mix of Indian/European. Some of the women were almost blond and quite fair skinned. Just like some of the Roma people of the UK, something that surprised me and that I didn't expect.

[tillystar]

I like your memory Deyana, I really got caught up in the image of the twirling skirts! Is that from your book? I’d love to read more!

I have been fascinated since discovering my family history and have looked up more detail, but apart from a general consensus that Romany people originated in India and started moving towards Europe in about the 11th century there are huge differences in theory of why they moved and more detailed origins.

[tillystar]

We posted at the same time! Oh and I want to know what happened when your Mum caught you!

[Deleted]

Thanks, Tilly! That particular memory is not in my book as yet, my book starts from when I reach the UK at age 5. But I'm thinking of incorporating those earlier memories of India into the book too, trouble is being so young, they are only snippets here and there, so I may just put them in as that.

It's true, there is still much to discover as to why they moved so much from place to place, it would be interesting to find out for sure...

[Deleted]

You do? okay, I'll add the rest to that post.

[Deleted]

I have always read that the Roma come from India. I don't think that anybody disputes that.

[rikita]

yeah well afaik their origin from india was confirmed long time ago, mainly through comparison of romany with sanskrit (and i suppose also with modern indian languages that stem from sanskrit). as for the time and reason why they left their original home there are many theories. also it is not quite clear of the region they are from is actually in today's india or today's pakistan, or from various areas. at least i have read different theories about that... one was for example that some king (in persia maybe? don't remember) demanded groups of people to be sent to him as singers and entertainers, but later sent them away. another is of course that there were wars driving them away. probably also there were several groups leaving at different times.

btw, the name "rom" (female romni, plural roma) also has other forms (dom, lom) in other regions, depending on the phonetic development of the language - but in europe i think it is always rom, though of course some groups adopted a different name for themselves...

the word "zigeuner" or "tigan" or "cigan" etc. is supposed to come from a greek word (not sure what it was - athinganoi or something like that - it meant something like people who one shouldn't have anything to do with), and gipsy or gitano comes indeed from egypt as they were thought to be from there.

there are lots of interesting stories - like there were some gipsy groups for a while traveling with a letter from some church authority claiming that they were pilgrims who had to travel around because of some sin commited in their home - which though was more a way of having an easier time at traveling. of course also the story that they are from egypt was adopted at some. well you can't really expect people in those times to know the origins of their people.

oh and btw, in the romanian principalities (or only in vallachia? not sure...) there was a law until something like the 1850s according to which any gypsy that did not belong to a private owner or the church, automatically was property of the state - so all gypsies were serfs. from what someone told me that destroyed a lot of their social structure particularly in that region, with repercussions until today.

oh and from what i read, traditionally the most common occupations weren't so much entertainers, but rather a lot of them were repairing metal things, like kettles, or knifes - which also required them to travel around, because every village only has so much work to offer at a given time.

[hwinpp]

AFAIK they're originally from Sindh, now in Pakistan. Germans call them "Sinti".
As a people they're exceptionally diverse, reflecting all the cultures they've passed through and picking up different religions on the way. In the Balkans you find among them Catholics, Muslims, orthodox Christians and Protestants.
How do they get along with the (Irish) "travelers" in the UK?

[bixaorellana]

This is most interesting. As far as the Irish travelers go, wouldn't the traditional occupation of repairing metal objects be the origin of the term "tinkers" in the UK?

I didn't know that about the different religions. I thought the Rom had their own religion.

Here is an odd but interesting article with some useful links at the end. (2nd and the last one don't work)

[hwinpp]

The Rom or Sinti usually take on the religion of the host country. They're divided into clans and nations. Even their language is not mutually intelligible all the time. The constant is the use of words that come from Sanskrit though.

[Deleted]

This is really fascinating. Rikita, thanks for all that information.

Yes, I think the word 'tinker' is associated with the Roma People. Hw, how do they get along with the Irish travelers? Well, going by the ones that I met, it seems they have little respect for people who claim to be Romanies, but in reality are not and don't have the ancestry.

In the UK you can find travelers who are just that, they like to move around from place to place but have no actual Romany roots.

Just as a side note. Romanies are not treated all that well in the UK, from what I have seen. Most people don't want them in their neighborhood, and will and do rally around and put pressure on their local councils to move them out of their area. I knew of one group who settled in a near by field for several months, but nobody would go near them and everybody wanted them out.

One night we woke up and all our metal gates from our front gardens were gone! I mean from the whole street. People pointed their fingers at the gypsies saying that they saw a van full of them driving away with the gates very early in the morning. The people said that they had done this before. It was quite funny in one way.

In some cases the government does give them special areas to be in, and has even offered them permanent homes. Some will take them, many will not.

[rikita]

hwinpp - isn't sinti the name of one specific group (that lives in germany and some other countries), rather than what germans call all gypsies? similarly to the kalé being a group in spain, and manush in france? i always find it funny when the german politically correct phrase "roma und sinti" is used in cases where it doesn't apply (like speaking about the situation of roma and sinti in romania - when there are only roma there afaik...

well i would say they are discriminated against almost everywhere. as for firsthand experience i can only really speak about romania, which is the only place where i had more to do with some roma (mainly my co-students in a romany-course i was taking at the university there) who told me about some of their experiences. also, in romania people would constantly warn me not to go to specific places "because there are gypsies there", or warn their children that if they misbehave, the gypsies would take them, or in the case of one taxi driver explaining to me how gypsies all stink and how the problem with them is genetic.

of course, a lot of the problems are real - a lot of roma are poor, some do steal, beg, etc. - but there are also many who don't, who are adapted to the country they live in. i guess one problem is though, that they aren't given the choice of living their own culture without being outcasts - either they adapt fully, or they are associated with thiefs. and i guess a gypsy child growing up with remarks of how it will be a thief, will often become one. and i guess a memory of centuries of discrimination does have an effect of people and on how they raise their children. it is a difficult issue though...

as for housing being offered - in romania and other eastern european countries there are often complaints of "the government gave them houses and they just destroyed them or didn't take care of them". what is forgotten, though, is that in fact often enough the government forced them to move to those houses (instead of allowing them to pursuit their traditional life style) and often didn't give them jobs along with the houses, or other opportunities to even take care of them...

[hwinpp]

Yes, you're quite right, Rik.
The ones in Germany (actually some of the ones, but I think the majority) are called Sinti. And I also agree the PCness of always saying 'the R and the S...' is a bit much, but then I also hate being addressed 'Buergerinnen und Buerger dieses Landes...'.

Have you heard about the Rotwelsch? There's a whole subculture of disenfranchised people in Germany I only found out about in the last ten years, fascinating stuff.

[Deleted]

The various names used in France are:

gitans
tziganes
romanichels
camp-volant (pejorative)

The official administrative term is "gens du voyage" (people of the voyage)

[bixaorellana]

Mexico -- a country with no pc consciousness whatsoever -- mostly uses "Húngaros", although "Gitanos" is also recognized and used.

[Deleted]

Well, in France every single foreign gypsy is automatically labeled as probably Romanian, no matter where they come from (this may not be true in southwest France where a lot of them would be suspected of being Spanish).

[rikita]

kerouac - well manouches isn't an outside name, but the name they use for themselves. btw, just read that the manouches is an under-group of the sinti. and that django reinhard was a manouche.

hm i guess though that spanish gipsies would be quite different to eastern european ones, culturally. for one thing, from what i read (might be wrong of course) the spanish ones don't speak romany or a form of that anymore, but speak spanish with a few romany words mixed in...

[Deleted]

Yes, the Gipsy Kings singing group are also manouche.

[bjd]

Here in the southwest most of the gypsies begging in front of churches or at intersections are assumed to be Romanian. There are also large local communities who don't travel.

The court case at which I was a juror involved gypsy families, but the accused was born in Montpellier into a family who worked at fairs (forains) and although he & his family lived in a trailer, they had been in the same place for years. And the friend who took him to court had his own carpentry business in a small town near Toulouse. So "gens du voyage" is a bit of a misnomer in many cases.

[Deleted]

The term they use here for settled gypsies is "sedentarized." The Parisian suburb of Montreuil has a lot of sedentarized gypsies, to the extent that the local teen slang has numerous manouche words in it.

surin = couteau = knife
grailler = manger = eat
moutrave or boler = pisser = to piss
natchave = s'enfuir = run away

etc.

[lagatta]

I thought "grailler" was fairly standard "urban" French slang, which has manouch as well as Magrebi Arabic and Berber and West African language influences as well as the verlan phenomenon (which is akin to lunfardo in rioplatense Spanish, Cockney rhyrming slang and other "outsider" slangs).

Do the gypsies have institutions (cafés. churches, concert halls, whatever) in Montreuil? I've never noticed them there, but there are many other communities in Montreuil.

We must never forget that the Roma or Gypsy people were seen as a "subhuman" and dangerous group under Nazism and subjected to genocide.

[rikita]

true, a lot of gypsies were killed in concentration camps, something that seems people often forget...

i would suppose there are gypsy words in a lot of languages - even if other languages left more traces in their language, some words especially in slang come from them... of course the only one where i know some words for sure is in romanian...

[fumobici]

They are really quite reviled and marginalized in Italy it seems, even today.

[Deleted]

However, their musical and fortune telling skills are part of world folklore in the 'plus' column.

[Deleted]

They are considered outsiders in many cases, yes, even today.

I have a good Romany friend, his name is Pedro, he's very proud of his roots. Nowadays he has a regular job, and is very popular amongst the people of the town (in the UK). He is a very nice man, intelligent and trustworthy.

However, I know of others who are not. They don't all live in caravans anymore, although some still do, but I have found that even the ones who have decided to settle down, have many problems, some which come from the rest of the community, some which are of their own making. Their children are still 'marked', at school everyone knows who the Romany kids are, and the others kids are wary of them and wonder if it's even worth befriending them, after all, they may not be there tomorrow.

[Deleted]

My best friend in 9th grade was a gypsy, although I didn't realize it at the time. He appeared at my school that year and happened to say that he lived in a trailer and his family moved around a lot, but I didn't make the connection. Lots of people in the U.S. were already living in trailers (they weren't called mobile homes yet), and quite a few of them still moved around rather than being permanently placed on foundations.

He was from Texas but appeared to have lived everywhere across the south and the west of the United States and found that very normal. We didn't have any classes together but spent all of our time in 'study hall' together, usually playing word games. He was clearly quite intelligent but had below average grades, probably due to his living situation. Nevertheless, his parents stayed in one place for the entire school year, and then they moved along the moment the school year ended, probably itching to be back on the road.

We stayed in touch for a couple of years, while he was back in various locations in Texas. Then he was drafted into the army and was immediately killed in Vietnam.

[bixaorellana]

What a story! It's an ugly irony that a people who probably only lightly used the nation's resources had to pay with a son.

My grandmother and my dad both told me that there were gypsy routes through the US south in the 1920s and 30s. I wonder how long those routes were used by the same people.

[Deleted]

That's a very sad ending to that story, K.

[rikita]

very sad indeed...