Rational shared lodgings

[Deleted]

Living habits are not the same as they used to be, but living spaces have not changed much. People have had to adapt to flats and houses that were not designed for their needs, but some architects are finally starting to build new places that are designed with 21st century life in mind.

The concept of roommates was one of the first problems to be tackled. Up until now, the only way to do it was to take a big apartment and fill it with as many people as there are bedrooms. But this has often meant 5 people sharing one bathroom or somebody having a room just partially separated from the common living room, not to mention incompatible hours. Young people can learn to put up with it for a couple of years, but not the older generations.

In any case, the French association Habitat & Humanisme started by analyzing the motivations of people looking for roommates and of course it was immediately confirmed that the principal reason is economics, combined with a desire to live in a central area and still have a reasonable amount of private living space.

Designing collective apartments is easier said than done. People need to have areas to be intimate and definitely want to feel at home, but they don’t want to live in isolation. Then crops of the problem of what they are willing to share, and it isn’t always the same thing. In fact, it almost never is. Single mothers are extremely willing to trade off on babysitting and household chores while older people are more interested in friendship and shared activities.

The association decided that the different groups could not really be mixed and decided on a few basic configurations:

 Young singles
 Senior singles
 Single mothers
 Single parent households sharing with seniors

As for the actual design of the lodgings, there were some basic ideas that could be used for the building, such as a central entrance like a hotel lobby with sofa cubicles for receiving guests, a common laundry room (very rare in European apartments) and a rooftop terrace. As the first building is in the center of Lyon, there was also a small crèche on the ground floor to encourage interaction with the rest of the neighborhood. The rest of the building consists of 4 floors and a total of 8 apartments, with a floor for each sort of group.

“Boundaries” are different depending on the groups – the young people share 2 bathrooms for 4 persons, while the single mothers and the seniors have individual bathrooms and toilets. The seniors have a TV corner in their bedroom, while younger people have a larger living room for socializing and listening to music. The single parents have individual refrigerators and kitchen sinks.

So, what’s the biggest problem? It’s the legal ramifications. It is hard to write leases for shared lodgings and to figure out ahead of time the rules for leaving a lease or dealing with conflicts. Two “administrators” are planned for the building to handle minor maintenance and shared bills, as well as to fine tune the rules as needed

After this first place in Lyon, another one will be built in Paris. In both cities, finding decent lodging is a nightmare and more than 50% of the population lives alone. If people can start getting organized into more rational ways of living, it will be a major step forward for sustainable development.

[lagatta]

There are various ideas underway for "cohousing" - in some places people own them, as a sort of cooperative or condiminium scheme. The problem is always what is to be shared and what is individual. I do need my own space, but it can be small and there are certainly things I'd just as soon share with a group of people: laundry facilities, certain tools, a space where we could entertain larger groups (either together or in turn), a guest room. That would be a real boon if we have relatives or friends visiting!

Indeed masses of people "living alone" as has become almost the majority way of life in the largest cities in Europe and North America, is a very recent development in human history. Certainly 20th century, much more since the Second World War, more still since the social upheavals of the 1960s and 70s. It does mean more freedom, but also more loneliness and a duplication of appliances large and small. I really don't need my own vacuum cleaner or power drill. I DO need my own computer.

Sharing cooking and personal hygiene facilities (stoves, fridges, kitchen sinks, bathrooms and toilets) can really be a minefield, in terms of different standards of personal hygiene. Not just in terms of how clean to keep stuff, but WHEN to do the cleaning.

I don't get the impression that finding decent lodging is nearly as hard in Lyon as it is in Paris though. Lyonnais friends who had lived in Paris were always relieved to get back to their hometown and relatively more spacious lodging. But perhaps that has changed in the past few years.

[cristina]

Is there no category for "middle-aged?" Just asking...

I wish there was something like this cooking in the US. My mom lives in an expensive city, in the same house for 40+ years. It's far more house than she needs, and in her late 70's more than she should need to care for.

Her best friend, also widowed is also living in her too-large family home. I always think that they should both sell the houses and buy an apartment together where someone else takes care of the maintenance. This thought is unimaginable to either of them.

My mom has stopped telling me about her adventures on stepladders. It is really hard to live so far away.

[Deleted]

I think any unattached mature adult is considered to be a 'senior' for this sort of thing. In the abstract, middle-aged people are still serving as hotels for their college age children.

[lagatta]

cristina, there is definitely cohousing in the US: www.cohousing.org/ You can also look up "intentional communities", though you'll find everything from ecovillages to the descendants of old communes as well as the type of arrangement you are looking at. In any case, even if they each have their own little flat next to each other for safety purposes, your mum and her friend don't need big houses and it really is too much work for them. I fear a lot of people fear such a move is the first step to the grave, and not a relief from a no longer needed burden.

Think cohousing is most developed in Northern Europe.

Kerouac, obviously middle-aged people without children or whose children are already working and "settled down" are not going to want to think of themselves as "seniors".

[bixaorellana]

Gad, the idea of having to share housing makes me want to turn myself in for use as soylent green.

An aside about "middle-aged" and "seniors". I don't know if this attitude is prevalent in Europe, but there is an uneasy standoff in the US about age. After all, the baby boomers -- the Woodstock/Altamont generation -- are all old people now. ( )

It's a lot more comfortable to ignore this, even though it's plain to see that many of our musical idols romping across stage in leather pants have even more leathery skin. However, the plain fact is that the children of the baby boomer are the middle-aged. But if we admit that, we have to admit that we are oooooold.

Having lived in suburban splendor in the US, I can also say that the whole Noah's Ark syndrome is firmly in place -- everyone is, or should be, firmly ensconced in a couple situation.

There seems to be an optimistic viewpoint in the Lyon's model that people might be happy to live together -- that it would be more practical for the single mother (note they don't say "parent"), that young people wouldn't care that much, and that old people must be lonely, thus happy to live with someone else. And I guess all the middle-aged people are off in the 'burbs, living happily in coupledom.

Personally, I think the "assisted living" model in the US would be so much more flexible and pleasant if it could be economically adapted to scarce living space in Europe. It would certainly make the lease situation more straightforward. It's really nothing more than efficiency or one-bedroom apartments with their own bath & kitchen, but with communal areas. Of course regular housing wouldn't require dining facilities, but could incorporate play areas for kids, green spaces, etc.

[bjd]

As useful as it would be to share housing under certain circumstances, I think there is a reason that many 1970's communes failed --- it's just really difficult to live with a group of people. Having spent several summers with a large number of family members, each with their own idea of how much they should contribute to making meals, cleaning up after themselves, etc, I am not convinced that I would be ready to live in cohousing.

[lagatta]

I don't think commune-type housing can succeed among individualist Western people. The cohousing schemes that do work seem to be as bixa says - small efficiency apartments with other shared facilities.

I refuse to be called "old" until such an age as I'd qualify for an OAP, and that is at least ten years away. I have no children, and never wanted any. I do have several friends who have had a child or two very late - at 40 or even a couple of year later - so their children are still young, not middle aged, even though they are also in their 50s. To say nothing of men who've had them older still, though those are usually second families.

[Deleted]

The main thing that they are trying to avoid here are the senior ghettos, because there have been so many reports about Sun City in Arizona and other places in Florida. The seniors want their own space and privacy, but they don't want to be completely cut off from contact with younger people. The "new" seniors still even listen to rock music, so it's not as though there needs to be a Perry Como room in a shared residence.

Frankly, I am fascinated by these attempts to bring the generations together in a non confrontational way. And as independent and individualistic as I am, I am fully willing to give limited communal living a try when the time comes.

[lagatta]

Well, rock music goes back a long way now, but a lot of us old farts even listen to SOME rap and other more modern music - Not all of it, but I didn't like all rock back when. Grand Corps malade is playing right now...

There are also some senior ghettoes (for those with €€€€) in the south of France, in Spain (for Brits and Germans) etc.

I don't get the impression that the housing your report talks about is for people with much of a choice - it is that or a rented room. I'm thinking of the people currently squatting at Place des Vosges. Evidently most of them are youngish people who do work, not "street kids" or itinerants, but they are working on temporary contracts and can't afford an appartment or get a landlord to sign a lease with them.

[cristina]

Nov 26, 2009 11:49:38 GMT lagatta said:

cristina, there is definitely cohousing in the US: www.cohousing.org/ You can also look up "intentional communities", though you'll find everything from ecovillages to the descendants of old communes as well as the type of arrangement you are looking at. In any case, even if they each have their own little flat next to each other for safety purposes, your mum and her friend don't need big houses and it really is too much work for them. I fear a lot of people fear such a move is the first step to the grave, and not a relief from a no longer needed burden.

Think cohousing is most developed in Northern Europe.

Kerouac, obviously middle-aged people without children or whose children are already working and "settled down" are not going to want to think of themselves as "seniors".

I think the bolded part describes my mother and her friend completely.

I did look at the link you provided and there are some very interesting communities in existence. Unlikely that my Mom would entertain any of them, but I would for myself at some point.

As for Sun City and other retirement communities, they abound here and I hate them. They are unattractive, IMO, because of the restrictions on home individuality (i.e. limited selection of approved exterior paint colors). But I think its worse that people would want to cut themselves off from anyone who isn't their age.

One thing about where my Mom lives, its a pretty urban neighborhood and the age range is quite diverse. I think that's a large part of the attraction of staying put. She would hate to leave her neighborhood.

[bjd]

I don't think commune-type housing can succeed among individualist Western people.

I don't think it has been much of a success in China either. The only reason people live in those communal apartments is because they are forced to. I bet if they had a choice they would all like to have their own kitchen and bathroom.

[Deleted]

And that's why the time has come to reinvent and experiment.

[auntieannie]

For having shared kitchens and bathrooms with others (non-family) I know they are huge pressure points. I like the idea, in theory, though.

Here in England, people are used to sharing houses; out of financial need mostly, I would think. For example my boyfriend and I are paying half our salaries in rent and rates. even more now that I have changed jobs. But this allows us a nice apartment in town, with space to receive guests. if we weren't together, we would have to win the lottery or go back to sharing accomodation.
The media would like me to understand that families are starting to live together again, because of financial pressures. which means you can take care of your parents and they can take care of your children. It strikes me that the kind of building described in the OP wants to provide a similar solution, with the added bonus of a little more personal space for everyone.

I would like all private areas to benefit from a private bathroom/toilet as well as a small kitchenette with a big communal kitchen and a communal cold storage area with private "cold lockers". and a big room for communal activities. It would be great if that type of building could provide "allotment" type gardens that residents could work together. Basically offering the luxury of being able to keep to oneself or to participate in communal activities.

[Deleted]

Nov 26, 2009 20:14:18 GMT bjd said:

I don't think commune-type housing can succeed among individualist Western people.

I don't think it has been much of a success in China either. The only reason people live in those communal apartments is because they are forced to. I bet if they had a choice they would all like to have their own kitchen and bathroom.

I agree.

I think this concept works well in places like India, where it's common place for the parents, grandparents etc, to all live in one house, but it just doesn't seem to work in the Western Countries.

It seems like a good idea, on paper. But not ideal, in reality. I wouldn't like to live with people who were not my family, I don't even like the idea of living with extended family. I've been independent of them and others way too long for that.

My mom has her own house, and even though she is quite a bit older then some retirees who live in specially made apartments with shared facilities. To her, moving to such a place or sharing with others who were not her family members would be very uncomfortable.

[Deleted]

If we can find the will power to start organizing this stuff, we can make it succeed. There is an incredible amount of waste in our cherished individualism.

At one time, I was talking with some people in Paris who had determined that it was MUCH cheaper to buy an entire apartment building (let's say 6 floors with 2 apartments per floor = 12 apartments) than for a set of a dozen people/couples/families to each buy an apartment. If you abandon an entire floor (2 apartments) and turn it into a large communal area (laundry facilities, lounge, party room, even a guest room or two), it is still much cheaper than each person buying their apartment individually and offers a much greater attraction to all parties.

And yet people are still not able to organize themselves to do such things...

[Deleted]

It would take some organization though, Kerouac. At the moment, it's the bigwigs with the money doing this and making a killing out of it.

[Deleted]

Of course -- it is totally against their interests for people to organize to save money and live more happily.

[lagatta]

The cohousing schemes I'm familiar with are as annie describes:

"I would like all private areas to benefit from a private bathroom/toilet as well as a small kitchenette with a big communal kitchen and a communal cold storage area with private "cold lockers". and a big room for communal activities. It would be great if that type of building could provide "allotment" type gardens that residents could work together. Basically offering the luxury of being able to keep to oneself or to participate in communal activities".

Definitely a toilet and small bathroom for each person, couple or small nuclear family. Idem a kitchenette and small fridge. But a communal area and an allotment in areas where that is possible (difficult in central Paris) would be a good trade-off for less space. A guest room would be a huge plus. We have a back garden area at the co-op but so far it had been reserved as play areas for small children, but there is only one small child and her mum would prefer an allotment.

Alas cristina, I fear that is how many people feel. Next step some horrid "rest home". (I'd shoot myself first). I've never really had or wanted a big house so that isn't such an issue.

[Deleted]

The city of Paris runs "résidences-services" for the elderly. These are all "studettes" (mini-studios) with a small kitchenette, a full bathroom and a living/bedroom. Downstairs, there are communal rooms and meal services for those who don't want to cook. Abstractly, they seem like a good idea, but when I was scouting around for a place to put my mother (who didn't qualify because her Alzheimer's was already too advanced), I found them extremely unappealing.

The main thing is that when you create a building for 80 residents or so, it turns into a hospital-style institution whether you want to or not. These places need to be much smaller, but that of course poses the problem of meal services not being viable.

The main thing that I have always read about the problem of "retirement homes" is that people go into one much too late, when they no longer feel like making new friends and are far too set in their ways. But then again, who could possibly want to go to such a place when they are still spry?

Society needs to be reorganized!

[fumobici]

Hmmmm... I lived in some shared houses long ago and when the people were OK and once the housekeeping responsibilities had been delegated I thought it was fine. I don't think I'd have a problem with such an arrangement assuming those two prerequisites were met and the actual place was acceptable. I don't like the idea of segregating people by age though, communal residences should be all age places with kids to seniors. If you are annoyed by people of ages (or cultures) different than yours, you are boring.

[lagatta]

Not if you work at home, you aren't! (I'm talking about immediate dwelling, not having children about, which is a very positive thing). Oh, I like people of all ages and backgrounds, but it is really hard to do work that requires a lot of concentration with a screaming toddler in the same room. (Yes, I know that is spoilt, but I quite deliberately never had any).

Pity those studettes are so depressing. Perhaps the age segregation? I have a friend who lives in an HLM for seniors and likes it very much - she is very close to a métro hub, several buses, marché Jean-Talon and other great shopping. But I don't believe the HLM serves meals. She does find most of the old people "boring", but there is a community centre around the corner (I belong to the centre, and we backed building the HLM). She is active in many activities and committees.

But this is a particularly nice HLM - it is a low rise (about 4 storeys) and the little flats have nice big balconies. A lot of people think it is condos and want to buy a flat.

There are some retirement homes for specific groups that seem to work better - there is one here for former actors/theatre people, another for LGBT people who are very marginalised in "straight" care homes, and of course homes for specific ethnic and cultural groups. It is hard to say whether people who prefer those are boring. There is such a thing as "cultural comfort".

I worked doing historical research and interviews in the Italian one here. The food is good!

Oh, I forgot. "single mothers" vs generically "single parents" (mothers and fathers) Often housing for the former refers to young or vulnerable single mums with the dad either not in the picture or more often very immature, like the mum, and not spurred on by biology... often it is interesting for them to join together to sit each other's kids and to take part in programs that will get them back in the job market.

Know a single father who is in a co-op, but not in need of any such specific services. The "kids" are big now, at university and Cégep (pre-university college, similar to a Lycée).

[auntieannie]

K, I disagree with the idea that people move to a "retirement home" too late. In the retirement home where my grandmother was staying, a bachelor moved in when he felt it was a better solution for him. He was independant, had his own car that he was still driving around to go meet his friends. He thought it would just be easier to have meals prepared for him and a bedroom that would always be cleaned and taken care of for him. Within 3 years his mental and physical state declined dramatically. He soon had to be locked inside as he would escape in his pyjamas, not knowing where he was going. Poor man!

[Deleted]

That is exactly the way that people should enter retirement homes. But in France, I read that the average age for entry is something like age 85, because people think they can remain independent up until the end, which just isn't possible for most of them, and then they get forced into a place by their family.

If residences for older people could be made appealing, it would be of great benefit to everybody (without, in my opinion, going to the extremes of 'Sun City' and places like that which exclude the presence of children).