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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 18:26:45 GMT
What are you views on them? Do you know anything about them at all? Why they happen, how they first started etc? They have always took place in Royal households, and are an Indian tradition also.
I'm writing about one in my book right now. I, obviously, didn't have one, but I know many people who did, and I have attended many such weddings in the past.
Any time I have ever asked or questioned Indian people about arranged marriages, some have stated that it's the best kind, and the only kind that can last, because it's not based on love. Love can come and go, but a marriage should be based on a stronger foundation than that.
And yet, around me I saw unhappy people, trapped with a wife or husband that they never wanted in the first place. The pressure from the family and community is so great to stay together, that in some ways there seems no way out.
Anyway, what are your ideas on this subject?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 20:09:56 GMT
Arranged marriages have existed since the dawn of time, and obviously they still exist, even in the "advanced" countries, although not as openly as in "traditional" societies.
In France there is still a big problem with them in the Turkish and black African immigrant communities, usually along the lines of tricking the teenage girl to go with the family on a vacation to the "home country" and then stranding her there without a passport. There is also an effort to get the male offspring to marry a chosen person, but they are less docile.
But the parents in Western countries are not innocent of manipulation and threats either. One of the reasons that I exist is because my mother refused the young man that her parents had chosen for her, so she threw herself in the arms of the first semi-acceptable American soldier she could find.
We'll never know if the world is a better place for that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 21:53:36 GMT
hmm...that's interesting. I actually had no idea that Turkish and black African communities practised this too. I have also found that the males don't seem to mind as much being arranged off as the females do, not sure why this is.
I've personally witnessed some very sad cases of girls being arranged off to men they really didn't like. One of my school friends actually ran away from home as a teenager because of an arranged marriage that was being forced on her. In the end she ended up pregnant by some boy that she met and last I knew was raising her daughter alone.
How would her life have been if she had chosen to be arranged? I'm not sure. But giving up one's freedom for other people's ideals is not an easy task.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 21:59:43 GMT
The males don't mind because they get a wife at home who cleans and cooks and raises the children and submits to them, and they can still go out and fuck whomever they want.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 22:01:08 GMT
The Maghrebi (Tunisia-Algeria-Morocco) also used to practice this, but they have lost control of their children in France, so only the weakest are sent to the slaughter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 22:01:29 GMT
Exactly, Kerouac. And that's just what happens. I've seen it countless times.
It's not always the case ofcourse, but sadly, many times it is. I think this situation has improved somewhat over the last several years however. It all depends on just 'how' arranged a marriage was and if the participants were keen on it to begin with or not.
I'm not saying that this only happens in arranged marriages, it can happen in any kind of marriage. But it's definitely off-putting for sure.
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Post by hal2000 on Jan 28, 2010 22:54:16 GMT
Don't you think that sometimes the weak ones benefit from the parents taking charge?
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Post by patricklondon on Jan 29, 2010 16:26:42 GMT
Arranged marriage isn't necessarily forced marriage, of course. The latter is a problem in the UK, with quite a lot of effort going into thwarting it wherever possible. But there are indeed people who like having possible partners set up for them (with the emphasis on the possible).
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Post by lola on Jan 29, 2010 16:44:09 GMT
The closer my daughters get to marriage age, the more the notion appeals to me. (please insert the "just kidding, kind of" punctuation mark here, kerouac"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 17:14:31 GMT
Arranged marriage isn't necessarily forced marriage, of course. The latter is a problem in the UK, with quite a lot of effort going into thwarting it wherever possible. But there are indeed people who like having possible partners set up for them (with the emphasis on the possible). Patrick, forced marriages have always been a big problem in the UK, and in parts of Canada too (espeically British Columbia, where there are big Indian communities). Just wanted to clarify, it's true some people, male and female don't mind being arranged. There are many reasons for this. I have seen first hand how girls (in particular) are brought up to know that this will be the only way for them, they are taught to be subservient to the men in the family, and are shown what their 'duties' will be from day one. This of course happens more in India then in the Western countries, but it can happen anywhere. So when the time comes for the boy or girl to get married, there simply isn't the room for any questioning or discussion. Everything in their life has been geared up to this one event. There are those who rebel, and they pay a price for this. Sometimes being shunned not only from their immediate family, but the extended family and the whole community. They are told that they bring shame to them all, by going against the tradition. It's a LOT of pressure. No wonder some of them simply comply, and live an unhappy life rather than face whatever they may have go through by defying the rules.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 17:15:18 GMT
Don't you think that sometimes the weak ones benefit from the parents taking charge? The men mostly I'd say. Those without the skills to find a wife for themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 18:18:42 GMT
In France, there have been young women burned, disfigured with acid, held prisoner by father and/or brothers and I am always amazed that in almost every case it is a Turkish family.
I have a good opinion of Turkey, I would really like them to enter the EU, most of the Turks in Europe are very well assimilated into local cultures, and yet there seems to be some sort of authoritarian patriarchal streak to prevent some of the girls from living their lives freely.
I don't get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 18:34:06 GMT
You know something, even though I was brought up to know these traditions, and have tried to see both sides of the coin, I STILL don't get it. I don't get why females in some communities are thought of in such a way, and thought of as little value, of little worth and yet the males are glorified. It's really makes me angry. One of the few things that do.
I could carry on and tell you countless stories of what I have seen first hand regarding the unfair way women are treated, but it would take take all day.
Yes, there have been many cases of women being murdered because they would not comply. Or it was found that they had secretly been dating a boy. This doesn't only happen in those far off war-torn Muslim countries, it can happen anywhere. And sometimes, and actually most of the time, the person responsible for killing or seriously injuring a girl is a male member of her own family. No, I don't get, not one bit. But I think brainwashing has a lot to do with it.
The one thing I do admire about the women's movement in India, is that they have made it possible for women to hold on to their share of the land and property, once their parents pass away. For many, many years, it was only the boys who inherited and the girls had to give up any right to any kind of property to their brothers. There are strict legal laws in place now to protect women from being thrown aside in this way. I only wish this was applied in other countries too, because unfairness is still happening, in many parts of the world and is over looked because these Indian women are such a minority.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jan 29, 2010 21:31:00 GMT
I can share what I know. It was not my personal situation but one that I was involved with in a different way, if that makes sense.
The pressure for arranged marriages in India is still pretty strong- even among the more liberal/westernized Indians. The situation I am familiar with involved a very beautiful Indian woman who has a male relative who is very high up in Indian politics. This male relative pretty much lords over the entire family. Also this woman's father fell into some misfortune financially and had to borrow money from this powerful male relative. Debt of any kind is frowned upon in that culture, so when you have to borrow from family to pay debt, there is a huge element of shame around it.
This powerful male relative decided that this woman's father was incompetent (since he had to borrow money to pay debts) and that since that was the case, it was his job to make sure this woman was married off, and arranged a marriage for her with someone who appeared impressive from the outside. The man she was married to was the son of another prominent person who was the male relative's cohort.
The groom, as it turns out, was homosexual and this woman was intended to be his 'beard' so that it would be a good front as to not shame his prominent family. (So much of what is done in that cultures seems to be 'shame' based, in my experience... ) anyway, she was forced to marry this guy, and from almost day one of the marriage, he was bringing men into their house for liasons, sometimes several at one time.
When she confronted him about this, he beat her severely- more than once. She went to her father for help which was futile. The father could do nothing because he owed a debt to this powerful male relative both for the loan of the money and also for him making a "good match" for his daughter. It's all very twisted.
This poor woman had NO say over the situation, and is university educated and fairly westernized. What eventually happened was that her husband became more physcially violent to the point where she had a mental breakdown and was hospitalized. Only THEN did the family consent to a divorce- but only after making it clear that SHE was shaming the family for bringing a divorce on them!
So fast forward a couple of years, and she meets a new man who is hardworking and kind of heart. He does not care that she has been married before (which is a biggie) and wants to marry her. She tells her father and he refuses because this man is considered below her socially, even though he has a successful business and respectable family.
This woman's family, who could have cared less about her up to this point, (aside from reminding her what a shame she was on them), instantly mobilizes to block the marriage to this man. They set up an elaborate scheme to lie to him about her whereabouts and with the powerful male relative's help they HIDE her from him in the male relative's home which is walled and has security. They did this for two years until they could force her into another arranged marriage with someone they approved of, which they did.
The man who wanted to marry her tried and tried to find her and finally found out this had happened. Imagine how awful he feels too? This woman is in her 30s, has a college degree, career and her life is not her own. Its a sad story and I am sure it happens every day in that culture........
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 21:54:28 GMT
spaceneedle, thank you for sharing this story. and there are countless very similar ones.
When we think about forced marriages, we tend to think of village girls with little education, and no prospects being bullied into marrying a man that they do not want. But, that is only one scenario. I've heard of very educated women, with all sorts of degrees to their name, being put in such situations and then after being abused by their husbands, have had to find a way out.
Funnily enough I was on 'Indiamike' just today (it's forum all about India), and there was a woman from New York on there, asking how she could get out from a marriage that she did not want to be in. The tales of different women who have somehow or other been trapped into marriage with partners they do not want, is just endless.
It's interesting that you bring up the fact that the man was gay. Do you know that being gay is illegal in India? And how callus of the woman's family to push her into a such a sham of a marriage and not support her when she needed the help. And then to hide her away from a union that could have worked for her. It makes you wonder what they heck are they thinking? Traditions aside, that is so morally wrong.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jan 29, 2010 21:56:12 GMT
I might also add - as Kerouac touched upon - it is my experience that there can also be a very disturbing element of human trafficking involved in the practice of arranged marriages as well.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jan 29, 2010 21:57:50 GMT
Yes, deyana, it is a very disturbing thing indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2010 22:06:20 GMT
My Pakistani colleague (now deceased) was gay, and his family was apparently quite aware of this, but his parents, sisters and brother would have all gone out of their way to set up a sham marriage for him to save face in the family -- and they wouldn't even have asked him to consummate. But he had become completely French and resisted all of the propositions that they continually presented from Karachi, London, Vancouver, Miami and Houston. At the same time, I'm sure that if he had given in, he would have been a very kind fake husband and would have let his "wife" do whatever she wanted with her life.
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Post by spaceneedle on Jan 29, 2010 22:14:18 GMT
Even though the groom in the situation I described is horrible for beating his bride, in many ways he is a victim too... so, yeah, Kerouac.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2010 14:12:37 GMT
hmmm....yes, I guess they are both victims in their own way. But it seems the woman alway get it the worst. So ingrained are the attitudes towards them.
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Post by fumobici on Jan 31, 2010 11:03:14 GMT
Seems to be something tied to primitive cultures, where women are treated as mere property and human affairs are ruled by simple-minded concepts of shame/honor and blind obedience to class distinctions and patriarchal supremacy. Hard to imagine these sorts of barbarian uncivilized practices can survive in a modern cultural environment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2010 11:26:09 GMT
I disagree that it is tied to primitive cultures. Look, for example, at the royal families of Europe (Monaco, ha ha, excepted) -- none of them are really allowed to marry as they wish, even in the 21st century. I would like to be able to say that it is an inconsequential niche, but all of the traditional aristrocratic familes as well as any other "old money" families still do absolutely everything within their power to control the marriage plans of their offspring.
I'm not sure about other countries in Europe, but in France at least it is illegal to disown one's children, so at least that weapon cannot be used. If you have one child, either in or out of wedlock, he automatically inherits a minimum of 50% of your wealth. If there are two children, each receives a minimum of 33%, and so on... The remaining share can be given to whomever you want. Of course, a rebellious child can be cut off from regular funds until the inheritance, but parents are not even allowed to sell their house without the permission of their adult children.
(There is plenty of room for a debate about this law.)
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Post by fumobici on Jan 31, 2010 18:14:23 GMT
I don't think the culture of royal families (or similarly the very wealthy who feel compelled to observe the same sorts of primitive tribal/class distinctions to protect their privileged positions) are anything but an atavistic throwback to early primitive culture. Modern evolved culture is characterized by a middle class, educated, liberal model with more personal autonomy and less external micromanagement of one's existence by patriarchal family/tribe, church or restrictions on social interaction imposed by culturally regressive large income disparities. European-British culture seems generally less evolved to me than American middle class culture with its ever present obsession with class distinctions. Evolved culture to me will be less about one's family and social standing than about more liberal meritocratic criteria that view people as individuals rather than cogs in a family/tribal machine.
Interesting to read about French inheritance laws, sounds to me like a golden opportunity for a clever estate lawyer to cook the books in countless ways to thwart the state's intent and promote the parents'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2010 19:42:54 GMT
Oh yes, a lot of that is done, and then challenged. At the moment, the owner of the Lancôme-L'Oréal fortune, Liliane Bettacourt, is being challenged for senility in the courts by her daughter for making gifts in excess of ONE BILLION EUROS to her gigolo companion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2010 22:02:23 GMT
I like the way the French inheritance laws are. More Western countries should follow this as an example of how to do things. How long have they been in place, Kerouac?
I guess one way out of not having to leave anything to you kids is to spend it all while you are still alive.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 7, 2010 15:50:37 GMT
In the US (except Louisiana which has a French law tradition) you can disinherit children (although they will inherit if there is no will - on a slightly different scale if their mother is the existing wife)
But - deyana - having lived in the UAE where Indians are the largest group (more so than locals) I know what is often said there about Indian arranged marriages - but don't know how true it is. The Gulf marriages are 100% arranged - the woman will have never seen the man before. There is no attempt whatsoever to match personalities. I only know one Emirati marriage that was not arranged and her mother has an elaborate story to cover it up - using his sisters as cover - (even though he is a suitable groom by family standards). One unhappily married Emirati asked if my marriage was a "love marriage" and was actually shocked that arranged marriages don't exist in mainstream US culture. I think she was hoping that it was and that she and her husband could learn to love each other.
Supposedly the Indian families allow the arranged couple to spend (supervised) time together and either can reject the marriage if they are unhappy. Of course we aren't discussing the debt situation here or the amount of pressure involved. The women who are happy in arranged marriages say that (among other things) personality was considered. I don't know how true this is; if it depends on the part of the country, or anything like that.
My mother always thought she could have done a better job of arranging marriages than either of her daughters did on their first marriage. She was probably right but I really can't imagine it. Deyana - do you know any couples that fell in love after marriage?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2010 16:31:34 GMT
If arranged marriages were really just "arranged courtships" that could be called off, things would not be so horrible. But in too many cases, the marriage date is already set before the parties even meet. Children are supposed to "obey."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2010 16:21:52 GMT
Deyana - do you know any couples that fell in love after marriage?
Suzanne, the short answer to that is, no. But then again, (like the Tina Turner song), what's love got to do with it? They are not in it for love. I do think though in some cases, a certain respect and perhaps dependency does take place, and as children are usually born as soon as possible after the marriage, a connection and commitment is made.
There are some variations to what an arranged marriage actually is (I'll talk about that in a minute). But you have to realize that this is what the couple have been brought up to expect, and it's true that there are much less divorces happening where the marriage is arranged then a 'love' marriage. There are different reasons for this, if any conflicts do occur within the marriage, then the whole extended family become involved to try and 'solve' the problem. Sometimes it gets solved, sometimes it doesn't, and the couple keep on living unhappily on.
I grew up witnessing men having affairs behind their wife's back, left, right and centre. There was even one woman who lived a few doors away where the man would bring his girlfriend home and the wife would have to serve on them both.
There are variations to what we might consider an arranged marriage. Firstly, like you said, and especially in places like India, the couple have no choice at all, the decision is left entirely to the parents and extended family. The parents will go looking for a suitable match for their son or daughter and the if one is found, arrangements are made to proceed further, this may (and usually does), include talk of a dowry. The richer the family the more they are expected to give as a dowry, this may include jewelry, cars, motorbikes etc. Event though the Indian government have made the dowry illegal now, greedy families still ask for one and are expected to give. Some will not give up their son's if the they feel the dowry is not sufficient enough or one is not forthcoming.
Things are slowly changing however. In the West and in some cases in India too now, the boy and girl will get to meet each other, but maybe only just the once. The meeting will take place in either the girl's or the boy's family home, with all the families present. Here they may be allowed to exchange some words and talk for a while, but that is as far as it goes. The pair will may or may not, get a change to say if they approve of their future wife or husband.
Another type of arranged marriage, (and this is growing in popularity in the West), is when the couple are allowed to 'date'. However it may only be allowed just the one time, and is usually chaperoned. Others may be lucky enough to date several times, and sometimes are not chaperoned. Then a decision has to be made by the pair, whether they wish to get married or not, but the pressure is usually on for them to get married. After all all the background checking on both families has been done, all is needed is for the boy and girl to click.
There ways around an arranged marriage, but it doesn't alway work. A friend of mine, for instance, secretly dated a boy year back, then she persuaded her parents to arrange a wedding for them, which is what happened. Sadly the couple divorced after a few years. He started having affairs behind her back.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2010 16:25:58 GMT
Kerouac, that's right, my parents, for instance, were promised to each other at birth. Both came from upper-middle class families that knew each other and were friends for many years. They thought that the union would bring the two families even closer together.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 20:28:34 GMT
Iranian movies regularly treat this subject -- and the filmmakers always find ways around tradition. It is a shame that the people most concerned have probably never been to the cinema.
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