Blaming the woman

[lola]

I always tell my homeschool high school age Drama Club kids not to bother apologizing for walking in late, because my standard policy for tardiness is "It's your mother's fault." They get a kick out of this, and it gets me out of listening to tedious explanations.

Recently I complained to my husband about an excessively Teacher's Pet girl. As a teacher, he doesn't find this type annoying at all, and unlike me never did as a kid. It was male jerks that bothered him. Unlike me, he thought overly cutesy and flirtatious girls were just fine, too, but I often found the jerks strangely attractive.

People see through the tricks of their own sex and either are more willing to overlook, or don't recognize those of the opposite. Discuss?

[Deleted]

You have a point, or rather two points, but it is nevertheless more complicated -- yes, each sex does see through the tricks of people of their own sex, but some of them approve and others completely disapprove. Generally, though, at least among guys, we approve with the afterthought "I wish I had the nerve to do that!"

In terms of overlooking the shenanigans of the opposite sex, I think that depends more on how badly someone may have been hurt from past experience. Some people have decided "trust no one ever again" while others figure "I'll get it right this time" and still others "it's all a game and I want to play!"

[lola]

I wouldn't have minded being petite and cutesy as a high schooler, instead of 5'8 and a half" and dignified. Never could pull it off.

[Deleted]

Batting your eyelashes and giggling like a halfwit tramp didn't work?

[lola]

Oh, I giggled tons, for all the good it did me.

I know it annoyed the nice guys seeing the sweet and pretty girl fall for the macho blowhard.

[bixaorellana]

Jan 31, 2010 16:15:12 GMT lola said:

People see through the tricks of their own sex and either are more willing to overlook, or don't recognize those of the opposite. Discuss?

Hoo-boy ~~ interesting! Complicated!

I recently had a conversation about this with a female friend, my position being that some of the less obvious manipulations by men are invisible to women and blatantly obvious to any men who happen to observe them.

Setting aside well-known flirtatious wiles for the moment, I've also observed women in the workplace who manipulate by using "feminine" tricks of helplessness, crying, and the like, perhaps reinforced with gifts of baked goods. Real women watching this are nauseated, particularly since they can see the trickster has a will of iron and every intention of foisting that on others. No matter how unattractive the female pulling this stunt is, she will manage to flip the protective switch on every male in her sights.

[lola]

My husband has always responded disappointingly to tears. Closer to anger than protectiveness. Not that I was ever able to turn them on at will.

[bixaorellana]

Yeah, but it's not a game where you're involved. If it's some random bimbo at work who doesn't want to get yelled at because she jammed the copier for the umpteenth time, he may well respond to her tears with a token "there, there", & he's off the hook. But when you cry, he knows that on some level is he is either responsible for making you unhappy, or responsible for making you feel better. Either way, he feels helpless and frustrated, which manifests as exasperation/anger.

You didn't know I had an advanced degree in pop psychology, did you?

[lola]

Hey. You're good, girl. I would prefer a simple "there, there" from time to time.

When I see someone I like getting involved with the manipulative type, even though I realize it's a stimulating game, I have to say, "Surely he's not falling for the old eyelashes trick."

[Deleted]

Yeah, nobody drops their handkerchief anymore....

[Deleted]

Jan 31, 2010 17:13:06 GMT kerouac2 said:

You have a point, or rather two points, but it is nevertheless more complicated -- yes, each sex does see through the tricks of people of their own sex, but some of them approve and others completely disapprove.

Yes, we can see the tricks our own sex pull, and at times, it can be annoying, other times funny to watch and make us roll our eyes in disbelief. Most of the time I have the attitude of 'oh well, okay whatever'.

I personally like it when a man behaves like a gentleman, I like being treated like a lady, but then again I am a 'feminine' kind of woman. I LIKE being a woman. But I'm no-one's door mat or physiological punching bag. There's a big difference in the two.

I admit I do find it harder to see any 'tricks' the males might play. In some ways they are still a mystery to me, even though I live in a very male environment. But in a way, that is kind of nice too.

[lola]

Yes. Exactly. That sort of thing. Great parody, deyana.

[hwinpp]

I sometimes go to bars where the staff are exclusively women with a friend of mine. Actually the oldest and closest friend I have here. He's 65. He's not rich, he works as a freelancer for an internet company and he has some savings.

Whenever he suggests going to one of these bars, I immediately suggest different ones to which he'll respond. 'ok, after this one'.

It's fascinating to see the girls 'work' him. They tickle ladies' drinks out of him like there's no tomorrow and sometimes he'll send out for 2US$ phone cards to just distribute. I just look at him with raised eyebrows and think 'WTF!'.

Needless to say the girls all hate me and love him. But I don't blame them...

[hwinpp]

Here's one from our police blotter...

BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF ARSONIST
A man set fire to his house in Kampong Speu’s Samroang Tong district on Wednesday because he was angry that his wife wasn’t attractive, police said. The wife said her husband blamed her for not being as cute as his new girlfriend before setting his house ablaze. Neighbours rushed in to put out the flames and managed to save the house. The man fled the scene but was apprehended soon after and sent to a local human rights NGO.

www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2010012931220/National-news/police-blotter-29-jan-2010.html

[Deleted]

Feb 1, 2010 8:08:52 GMT hwinpp said:

It's fascinating to see the girls 'work' him. They tickle ladies' drinks out of him like there's no tomorrow and sometimes he'll send out for 2US$ phone cards to just distribute. I just look at him with raised eyebrows and think 'WTF!'.

Needless to say the girls all hate me and love him. But I don't blame them...

That made me laugh!

[bixaorellana]

I re-read the OP and am intrigued by your statement that your teacher husband is not annoyed by the annoying Teacher's Pet-type girl. It would be easy to dismiss that with an eyeroll and an "oh, men!", but studies indicate there may be more at work. I don't remember much about this, but using hands palm-out when speaking indicates openness and friendliness. Cues like this by a woman could make a man innocently think, "oh -- she seems nice", whereas used slightly in excess would have other women thinking, "Could she be more obvious?!"

I used to substitute teach at a private school -- an art class for 13-year-olds. I don't know if it was that particular group or what, but they excessively looked for validation from The Teacher and part of my goal was to instill some healthy respect and self-judgment of their own work. What would continuously disconcert me was how flirtatious the girls would be with me. I don't think they were trying to send out sexual signals, more that this was learned behavior to make the Authority Figure like them. Scary.

[lola]

Hmmm. Yes.
I was struck that teacher's pets never bothered him, even as a kid. Maybe the guys didn't think they had to compete in that way?

He says teachers appreciate the enthusiasm and engagement I guess of this type of kid, male or female.

[spaceneedle]

Interesting thread!

Where do I start?

As far as the concept of 'blaming the woman', I am seeing that more and more as I get older- since I've recently entered into midlife crisis territory and am seeing a lot of the people around me bail on long relationships to pursue new/younger/more exciting partners.

In one case, the parties were high school sweethearts who reconnected on facebook and left their respective spouses for each other. The female of the pair cannot understand why the now-ex wife of her new/old lover just can't "get over" the implosion of the 20 yr marriage since three months have passed since his divorce from her was finalized... In that case, I firmly believe that he'd still be with his wife if he hadn't reconnected with her on facebook. Two families destroyed, so the karma there can't be too good.

In another case, a friend left his wife and everyone wondered why it took him so long to do it. The wife was, to put it bluntly, mean as hell, and their house was so filthy that I would not want my dog to live there. He finally left and has decided to get a 20 years younger mail order bride from Asia.

In both cases, the word 'homewrecker' have been thrown around. I happen to not believe in that, since most of the time the home is usually wrecked before another person comes along. I think the label may be more appropriate in the first situation, but who knows.

I have another friend who married a divorced guy and after 15 years his still disgrunted ex wife is telling people that he met the current wife aka "homewrecker" on the internet and cheated on her. The funny part is that at the time she is claiming they met, the internet really did not exist... They met about three years later than the ex wife claims. It's amazing how we can so easily revise history in order to avoid taking responsibility for our part in our life's failures...

[Deleted]

When I was a teacher (and this was a school for bad teenage girls! oh, that's a whole other story!), I had some wannabe pets, too, but I found them so pathetic that I would just laugh at their antics. They found this annoying. I was far more intrigued by a couple of girls who pretended to hate me but I could tell that they didn't. Maybe I was being worked in a totally unexpected way. In any case, I gave them better grades than they deserved.

[Deleted]

But I thought teachers are supposed to be unbiased? (But we all know they are not!).

more that this was learned behavior to make the Authority Figure like them. Scary.

Agree that is scary and it makes you wonder exactly what the problem is regarding low-self esteem with girls, from what I've observed it seems worse then it used to be.

spaceneedle, you raise some really points there. When does cyber-flirting with the opposite sex go too far? And is this a form of cheating? Or just a bit of fun? Either way it's a total dis-respect for their own real life partners.

In both cases, the word 'homewrecker' have been thrown around. I happen to not believe in that, since most of the time the home is usually wrecked before another person comes along. I think the label may be more appropriate in the first situation, but who knows.

I agree, and the worst of it is, that it's mostly the women who label other women as such. And the man gets away with it, I just don't get.

It's amazing how we can so easily revise history in order to avoid taking responsibility for our part in our life's failures...



Yep, exactly, it never ceases to amaze me.

[spaceneedle]

I hear you deyana.

The friend who was labeled a homewrecker by her husband's ex just recently found out that the ex was telling friends and family this story... so how do you counter slander that has probably evolved into 'truth' in people's minds after almost two decades? The funny part is that this friend was not even living in the same geographic area at the time the ex claims they met on the non-existent internet ;D

[bixaorellana]

I've been thinking about the "blaming the woman" aspect of this discussion as presented in the OP. I'm going to walk a tightrope here and say that in many cases I can see why the woman is blamed.

In the case of most social situations, many men will not flirt with a woman if she is accompanied by a man. However many women who'd claim they're not flirting, will turn the full force of it on a man whether he has a date/partner with him or not. This puts the man at a disadvantage. He must be polite, which can be seen as encouragement -- something that may be angrily pointed out to him later by his significant other. And while it's going on, the man's date, his hostess, his best friend's wife, in short all the women who see this female primate presenting her buttocks, as it were, must smile and seethingly pretend nothing is happening.

Setting aside online hooking up, and looking at public flirting in a forum or chat room, it's obvious that such flirting has some major parallels with live flirting in a social situation. That is, it disruptively shows a disregard for others. The object of the flirting might be made uncomfortable or may respond in kind. Either way, everyone else must pretend not to notice, especially if they're women. But this is equal-opportunity victimization by passive-aggressiveness, as a man or a woman who mentions the flirting can be accused of jealousy, pettiness, etc., even though the real objection is because it's annoying and trivializes any real conversation.

[lola]

Gentle thou art and therefore to be won,
Beauteous thou art, therefore to be assailed;
And when a woman woos, what woman's son
Will sourly leave her till she have prevailed?
---Sonnet 41, Wm. S.

[Jazz]

Jan 31, 2010 16:15:12 GMT lola said:

People see through the tricks of their own sex and either are more willing to overlook, or don't recognize those of the opposite. Discuss?

Complicated and personal. I look at the obvious tricks of other women and am in awe that men simply do not understand what is going on. Can they truly be that dim? Yes, they can. I watch the interplay...fascinated...given that it is so pathetically obvious, I would never have dared to do it. And yet, most of the time, it is resoundingly successful.(?) Many times I have suffered through the woman's gloating over how 'well' it all went. But, I have to say that often I have been totally unaware of the man's 'tricks'. I think that men and women think and feel completely differently, and this is why we can be so easily manipulated by each other, yet be completely aware of the tricks of the individual sex.

Feb 1, 2010 22:28:15 GMT bixaorellana said:

But this is equal-opportunity victimization by passive-aggressiveness, as a man or a woman who mentions the flirting can be accused of jealousy, pettiness, etc., even though the real objection is because it's annoying and trivializes any real conversation.

Perfect. The accusation of jealousy, pettiness etc is the last refuge of the person who does not want to deal with a criticism and prefers to keep it simple. I do not have a problem, you are jealous.

[lola]

Other people's flirtations, even online, can be tiresome.

[Deleted]

Jazz, we are so alike in so many ways.

[bixaorellana]

Something just hit me, and now it seems so obvious that I'm almost embarrassed to mention it. How many times have you been the focus of irrational jealousy. For instance, after a party your husband/wife/whoever might say that you were really eating up so&so's coming on to you. "Huh?" you say, quite sincerely, wondering why your normally rational significant other is being this way. Well, duh! Of course he/she could see what the person of his/her sex was up to and assumes it's so obvious that you could see it, too, and that you were being a willing participant.

[Deleted]

You've hit the nail on the head about that, Bixa. So often, the "intended victims" tell their partner (usually quite honestly) "I just thought he/she was being nice," while the other person is seething with rage at the disgraceful spectacle just witnessed.

[traveler63]

I think that there is a fine line between flirting and being friendly. It is sometimes very hard to distinguish between the two especially woman to man. Often being friendly is misinterpreted by the guy and then it becomes uncomfortable for the woman and often leads to behavior that is not wanted by both parties. I think we all have been in this position at sometime in our life. It is not an easy thing to extract yourself from this kind of situation. When this happens sometimes women get the blame and it isn't always justified.

[fumobici]

I've been told on numerous occasions by women that they had been flirting with me and I've totally mistaken it for just friendly conversation. I am seemingly almost completely blind to the usual flirty tricks.