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Post by cristina on Jan 30, 2010 16:30:56 GMT
For example: Arizona is 50th in spending per student but as the article says: Actually, per the article, we are the 49th is spending. Utah gets the honors for being number 50. But its interesting to note that Mesa (as well as other cities in the Phoenix metro area) and Utah have one thing in common and that is the high concentration of Mormons. I think the family and social structure of the Mormon church probably contributes a great deal to the high graduation rates.
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Post by traveler63 on Jan 30, 2010 17:59:28 GMT
Agreed, Christina. AND I probably didn't read correctly.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 30, 2010 18:05:28 GMT
Existentia, you certainly said nothing offensive and I apologize if I was the person who made you think you had to explain yourself.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 30, 2010 18:50:24 GMT
I glanced at the people of WalMart site; it is not all in the South (it does seem to be all in the US, as far as I can tell, but who knows?) Found a lot of it juvenile and cruel. There were nasty comments about a somewhat-overweight (but not morbidly obese) middle-aged lady in a plain, slightly dowdy but perfectly respectable dress, for example. She wasn't in short-shorts, showing her tummy or anything lacking dignity. And some people in downmarket dress styles.
Sure, all of us laugh at that kind of stuff, but to create a site just about it is really well, shallow, entitled and mean.
This kind of topic is always difficult because we are dealing with stereotypes based on the media, jokes and hearsay, or at most limited impressions, with the possible exception of bixa whose Forces brat childhood exposed her to all kinds of places in that region. (edited to add: and probably kerouac as I believe he has travelled to a variety of places there other than his Gulf Coast Mississippi town).
I haven't been south of Virginia, except to Florida where I had very little meaningful contact with local people, so I don't have much relevant personal experience on the topic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2010 11:49:24 GMT
Pondering,musing over this,trying to keep an open mind...,I think back to my early fascination with this area we call the South. When I think about it,my allure to the South,actually the Deep South,more Louisiana and Mississippi,goes fairly far back,probably late adolescence,perhaps a bit earlier. I always was a voracious reader and I was fortunate enough to have had some wonderful mentors who helped guide me to literature that had a profound influence on my imagination. People,places and things evolve into vivid sketches,imagery in my mind much more so through words than other mediums. Although, music is right up there. Tennessee Williams,Truman Capote,Mark Twain,Carson McCullers to name a few,paved a rich path in my mind. Add to that ,a few wonderful biographies,one in particular,"Lafitte the Pirate",by Lyle Saxon,(yes,I have a fascination with pirates, ),and I was fairly hooked on coming here but, it took some years to get here. After graduating from high school,I went to college in Boston,and after a series of unfortunate events(one,a fire in the dormitory,not my doing...) had to transfer and as a second choice,chose to apply to a university here in NOLA. I had a tremendous urge to leave the Northeast and indulge myself in living somewhere far away,a place in my head,from earlier on. From the moment I arrived here,I was swept up into a lifestyle and pace that was completely irresistible. The climate,although oppressive and cloying,allowed me to slow down and observe.No one seemed to be in a hurry to get anywhere which allowed for more contact with one another.The landscape,so lush,it seemed that anything could grow here. People were outside all the time it seemed,not hermetically sealed in their homes. The music,everywhere,so seductive.The food,exotic and spicy.A culture and ambiance beyond description. And then,the people. I had never felt so at ease in my own skin.A certain grace,gentility and warmth that I had not encountered anywhere else. I stayed here for a couple of years,moved to Saint Louis for a couple of years,but,even from there,always came back here. I hitchhiked down here for long weekends the whole time I lived in Saint Louis. After a move back to New York,and a period of time in NYC, I was ready to return and have been here ever since,(1978). I did explore the possibility of living in some other Southern cities,Lafayette,Louisiana,Savannah,Georgia,Oxford,Mississippi,and Austin,Texas,although I don't really count that in as the South.I spent some time on the West coast,San Francisco in particular,and it just didn't grab me in the same way. I spent significant time visiting in these other places but New Orleans lured me back. In many ways,New Orleans,because of her European and Caribbean roots,is a Southern city unto herself. I have encountered all the same prejudices and attitudes mentioned,and then some. But,somehow,I have never found them to be as outstanding and offensive as I did in the other three major US cities I had lived,and certainly not as deep seated as the town where I grew up. I could go on and on...and I have too much.There are things that I positively loathe about living here,but,I always come back.I will always be a Yankee in so many ways. But,I have never been treated as an outsider. This is NOT the case where I grew up in NY. If you weren't a native,you were an outsider. It all comes down to a state of mind... this is mine.
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Post by lola on Jan 31, 2010 16:57:10 GMT
I'm a border stater through and through, with old Yankee/new Irish on my mother's side and the occasional NC and TN slave owner on my father's. I was born in Boston, but grew up just north of the AR border in a town where "Y'all" was common and people either were oriented towards Memphis or St. Louis, equidistant. The downtown drugstore that was open on Sundays had equal-sized stacks of the Post Dispatch and the Commercial Appeal. We got the Post, and now I live in a city where "y'all" is rare, that seems more racist IMO, and that some could accuse of amorphous dullness.
I've never been in the Deep South (TX not counting in my books). Faulkner's Jefferson, though, is a lot like my home town. Roots and family ties are the thing there, and you could never know much about it by passing through.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2010 17:18:57 GMT
Casimira mentions the lush vegetation of the Deep South, and that was always one of the attractions to me. However, a lot of people might not know that on the Gulf Coast (excluding south Texas and Florida south of the panhandle), there is a real winter with freezing temperatures a few time and lots of dormant vegetation that only starts getting green again when spring arrives. Obviously, winter is even more "real" as you move back from the coast.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2010 0:16:20 GMT
Casimira mentions the lush vegetation of the Deep South, and that was always one of the attractions to me. However, a lot of people might not know that on the Gulf Coast (excluding south Texas and Florida south of the panhandle), there is a real winter with freezing temperatures a few time and lots of dormant vegetation that only starts getting green again when spring arrives. Obviously, winter is even more "real" as you move back from the coast. Actually,this is not wholly accurate. The average low temperature for NOLA is 44F,(7C).Our winters are generally fairly mild however,this year, we took a particularly cruel blow when it plummeted down to 28F for several days. It hasn't been that cold since 1989. We'll see come springtime how cruel it really was... The dampness does always make it feel colder.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 1, 2010 3:12:38 GMT
Whew. Ever since this thread began, I've had to wonder in today's popular phrase, "Where is the love?" It's been very difficult for me to get past the gleeful unkindness at the beginning of the thread, although the thoughtful explanations and the genuine questions that were also posted did help redeem it.
And not to ignore any of the other worthy things said, but I particularly appreciated LaGatta's reminder on this page that much negative stereotyping is media-generated. I also found it gratifying that the women on here who "get" the south are such ladies, whether or not they've ever been below the Mason-Dixon line.
As to the "Canadian questions" from Imec and Existentia -- I think both of you would enjoy a trip through the south and would pick up on what makes the whole region "southern", even though there will be great variety. Obviously there will be exceptions, but overall there is a friendliness, a willingness to look at others and engage them in a little conversation that you'll meet throughout the south. That said, you'll also encounter some of the goofier or more unpleasant manifestations of human nature here and there as well. I do think that as a rule, you'll find more free-floating humor than you'll find other places, with people generally willing to have a laugh, perhaps more dryly or laconically than you may have encountered at home.
I closely read Casimira's tribute to New Orleans, as in some ways I identify with it. I went to N.O. the first time as a young teenager, then again when I was in college and was greatly drawn there. In 1970, as a pregnant young-married, I abruptly pulled up stakes and moved there. There's no point in my adding to what Casimira already said so eloquently, so I'll just say "Yeah!"
As far as the climate goes -- there is no place in the US that is consistently warm enough for my taste. I love humidity and am enormously heat-tolerant, so the Gulf south summers are fine with me. The damp cold in the Gulf south horrifies people from way up north, as they spend their first seasons in La., Miss., Ala, etc. thinking they'll comfortably coast through a winter that barely dips towards freezing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2010 14:19:09 GMT
Over the years that I have lived in this region I have taken umpteen road trips to many,many areas.Many,many trips back up to NY and back by car and one or two by train,all varying routes,coastline,mountains,and in between. A good number of friends who live in these various places have hosted my husband and or myself and friends. In this way,I have seen,experienced many wonders and not so wondrous adventures. A good number of dear friends of mine from here had to relocate after Katrina because they lost their homes and I have made a few visits to some areas of Mississippi, North and South Carolina,Georgia, and Alabama. I will expound on some of these experiences at some point. Arkansas is also a place I have visited on numerous occasions and have some great stories about.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2010 14:25:09 GMT
I need to see Arkansas one of these days.
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Post by lola on Feb 1, 2010 17:46:17 GMT
SE Missourians make fun of Arkansas drivers.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 3, 2010 19:23:16 GMT
I am a lifelong northerner. But I teach in the South - sometimes coming back to a place for months and months - while popping back north in between. I don't think of southern Florida or Texas as the true South - but in the states that are I do change my teaching style.
1) I try to speak slower (not always successfully) - even in Virginia and Huntsville 2) I do much more small talk - on my e-mails and in person. You can't just plunge in the way I would in my part of the country - it seems rude. 3) I notice myself picking up the habit of calling people Mr and Ms. It took me a while to get the hang of calling the same person Don or Mr. S without a lot of reason for the same (anyone in the north I call Mr. is ALWAYS Mr.) 4) And of course you all - which I start picking up. 5) Traditional Southern food is greasier (and even chains tend to make their food with more grease) 6) I cannot say I notice any difference at all in racial attitudes. My classes are generally mixed and when working at one of the HBS schools (Historically Black Schools - segregated until the 50s 60s and generally (but not always) still a primarily black student body) I am easily one of the team. When our tech support tells blonde jokes - I'm the one who points out she is the only blonde and everyone laughs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2010 20:41:49 GMT
This is perhaps the most informative post that I have read on this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2010 22:25:41 GMT
This is perhaps the most informative post that I have read on this thread. Likewise. I am especially intrigued that this insight is from the viewpoint of a Northerner,and has a sensitivity to the sometimes subtle and other not so subtle distinctions that you keenly observe Suzanne. Thanks for your input.
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Post by existentialcrisis on Feb 4, 2010 8:59:26 GMT
One question: why do you speak slower?
As for the problem of racism... I guess I may have been misinformed. I was thinking the other day (and many days) that Calgary is the most racist place I have ever lived.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 10:13:47 GMT
Often, the most racist places are the places where people have the least contact with people of another race or culture. In France, some of the most racist voters are in the villages of Alsace, and when the people are interviewed they say that there are no Muslims or black people in their village ("and we don't want any") and in many cases they have never seen any except on television.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 11:32:11 GMT
The slow speech along with every thing else slower, I attribute to the climate,slows down everything. But,I'm only guessing with reference to the speech. Just seems in keeping with the overall slowed down pace. I think the most blatant racism I've encountered in the south was in Arkansas,a small town in the Bible Belt,Mena. We went there for a long weekend some years ago to escape the summer heat here,it ended up being hotter there than here...Anyway,the town was predominantly white,and it was quite a culture shock for us. Any mention of African Americans was met with hostile,nasty racist remarks, even from our then friend. On top of that, the County was "dry',as in no alcohol beverages available for miles and miles.We couldn't get out of there fast enough. One of the most hostile environments I have ever,ever been in. Other parts of the state were beautiful in many regards,but,mostly scenery wise,gorgeous mountains and lots of rocks,winding country roads... Hot Springs proved to be a friendly small city and we spent a couple of days there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 11:52:20 GMT
I do not think that slow speech is climate related, because the Belgians and the Swiss are famous for their very slow speech in Europe.
However, speaking slowly in the South or in other such places seems like a good idea to me because fast speech is perceived as aggressive. (I am often mistaken for Belgian or Swiss, because my family comes from northern Lorraine very close to the Belgian border.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 11:58:30 GMT
I do not think that slow speech is climate related, because the Belgians and the Swiss are famous for their very slow speech in Europe. However, speaking slowly in the South or in other such places seems like a good idea to me because fast speech is perceived as aggressive. (I am often mistaken for Belgian or Swiss, because my family comes from northern Lorraine very close to the Belgian border.) Yes, I agree,I am a dead give away Yankee after just a few minutes, I never did pick up on or assimilate the slower speech pattern.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 12:09:16 GMT
I'm suddenly also reviewing in my mind how rapid-fire and loud the speech of Africans in Paris is. They sound like machine guns (or rappers on crack). However, the people from the French West Indies (whether white or black) speak very slowly and softly, sort of like the Deep South.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 4, 2010 12:36:46 GMT
I think the reason for the misinformation on race is that it is historically accurate. In my childhood; the American South was just, just beginning to come out of the US apartheid (although it wasn't called that). So, in 1958 the integration of the Little Rock Central High required National Guard troups (it is now 40+ percent each white and black with the remaining Native Americans and Asians). Just this week was the anniversary of 3 black men sitting at a lunch counter that had formerly been all white. There are many other stories too. But 50 years is a long time and the forced integration of that time means that Southerners did go to mixed schools and in the way of all people - made friends. So here in the North we never had segregated lunch counters or transportation - but my school was segregated merely because I lived in a white neighborhood and was called de facto (rather than de jure) segregation is harder to stamp out because there are no laws or individual actions that result in fundamental change.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 12:51:50 GMT
Interesting point Suzanne. I believe that segregation here in NOLA was even more recent than that but,would need to check with my husband on that. My high school on Long Island,NY was predominantly black,51% to be exact. This was not the case in the immediate villages,it had to do with my town being the main town where migrant workers from the south,mostly Virginia and the Carolinas came to work on the potato farms in the 1940's and 50's. They settled in Bridgehampton,literally,on the other side of the (rail)road tracks. I felt I was particularly privileged to have been in this environment as opposed to a predominantly white school.By the 1960's the climate was much more liberal so. whereas,my older brothers before me were not really encouraged to attend parties on the turnpike where the blacks mostly lived, my time however,we were rocking and rolling on both sides of the tracks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2010 13:01:47 GMT
My school in Long Beach, Mississippi, was the second school in the state to integrate, and it was done in 1965.
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Post by lola on Feb 4, 2010 15:08:46 GMT
In my southern MO home town, the swimming pool was segregated until the early 60's I think. They got to swim one day of the week. I learned recently that they believed the pool was drained and refilled every time afterwards.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 4, 2010 17:05:26 GMT
I think the reason for the misinformation on race is that it is historically accurate Perfectly put, Suzanne -- thank you! I addressed this in my Reply#5, but not as succinctly as you did here. Your summary of the history of de-segregation is exactly what I observed during my growing-up years across the US. And as you say, with time and exposure, the mental barriers came down. A small piece of anecdotal evidence to illustrate your point -- The television miniseries King, about the live of MLK, aired in February of 1978. It contained several of the uglier scenes of that history, such as setting dogs or turning fire hoses on civil rights demonstrators. I worked with a Black guy who had a daughter the same age as my son -- they were seven at the time. We compared notes on our kids' reactions, and both children were very confused. They knew it was modern times because of the clothing, but were hard-pressed to understand that it was actual history, not fiction. Their main questions involved "why", and they had trouble accepting that this was something that had happened in their parents' lifetimes. 1978 was only @15 years after those events had occurred. A word about the "slower speech". I think much of southern speech is not actually slower, only perceived that way because of the accents. (accent s -- they vary wildly!) Casimira, I am here to tell you that you are not speaking measurably faster than anyone else. Kerouac's remark about fast speech seeming aggressive rings true. But all "yankees" don't speak faster than people in other parts of the US. When they do, it gives the impression of everything happening faster, but I think that's a false impression of speed and efficiency. It is more common in the south to cushion any bit of business with a greeting and minor courtesies such as more pleases & thank yous. This may add a minute or so to the transaction, but doesn't slow efficiency. The people I find most like US southerners in this regard are Canadians, who have a very high reputation for politeness among Americans. This is far too in-depth for the scope of this conversation, but covers some of the racial/social make-up of New Orleans, and the integration of parochial schools there.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 4, 2010 17:37:43 GMT
The time line is interesting. George Wallace could still run for US President on a segregationist platform in 1972 and get significant support - ten years later it would have seemed bizarre. So if you use Brown v Board of Education in 1954 as the start (it isn't but it galvanized people the way the 1948 case prohibiting anti-black clauses in neighborhood association rules did not) and say that really by 1972 it was clear legal segregation was dying.
1) 1954 - Brown (separate but equal schools illegal) 2) 1955 - The Rosa Parks refusing to sit in the back of the bus/Montgomery bus boycott (successful) 3) 1958 - Integration of Central High (Little Rock, Arkansas) 4) 1960 - the Woolworth lunch counter integration - Greensboro, NC. The three men were not served but 6 months later Woolworth's integrated nationally 5) Civil rights marchs of the early 60s 6) 1964 - Civil Rights Act passed; end of Polling taxes (used as an excuse to stop black voters) 7) 1967 - Loving v Virginia prohibiting states from forbidding interracial marriage.
I think that is the last of the huge changes of the sixties - but by the seventies it was working - so maybe my 50 years is generous - give it 35 to be more accurate - but it's been a while.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 4, 2010 17:40:37 GMT
Oh and re slow speech - I read somewhere (I can't find it now) - that the average US southern speakers 80 syllables a minute; a Northerner 120, and a person from the Indian subcontinent, fluent in English but another language as the first language, averages 180. Obviously these are all variable since people vary - but I think there is some truth to it.
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Post by suzanneschuelke on Feb 4, 2010 17:52:56 GMT
And bixa - thanks for your 1978 story about the children - it really does illustrate a lot.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 4, 2010 19:07:27 GMT
Yes, some southerners speak significantly slower than the national average, just as I've heard some New Jerseyites speak more rapidly than would seem possible. But accents can vary so much in the US, I don't know how an average would be found. I am pretty sure I speak Spanish faster than I speak English, as it feels "righter".
George Wallace was an extremely interesting interesting politician and a great case study of the schizophrenia of racial politics. Read about him for some insights into changing attitudes of his times and why many Black voters supported him. (aside: he also had an absolutely beautiful speaking voice -- surely a great psychological tool for a politician)
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