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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 7:36:55 GMT
This is one of the most chilling photo essays that I have seen in a long time, especially considering the fact that this is the most powerful city in the most powerful country in the world. Brutal New YorkLuckily, quite a few areas have improved considerably since the time these photos were taken. |
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 4, 2009 14:16:20 GMT
I don't see that it has any value as a story-telling feature. The photos were taken over a 30 year period, it was posted three years ago, and there is no indication of who the real narrator or photographer is.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 4, 2009 15:33:49 GMT
It strikes me that even when this was posted three years ago Harlem had undergone a profound change for the better.
Would anyone know if the South Bronx has been remediated?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 17:17:02 GMT
I stand by my post.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 18:21:23 GMT
New York has always had that reputation. Brutal and harsh on the one hand, and lavish, glittery and almost surreal on the other hand. It makes the city interesting.
Some of the pictures do depict a side of New York that is real, even though it may have improved somewhat in recent years. At one time it was even worse, racism, gangs, riots etc. happened frequently, remember the movie, 'Gangs of New York'.?
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Post by imec on Dec 4, 2009 19:39:49 GMT
Striking photos, no matter who took them or when.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 20:09:30 GMT
I agree.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 20:26:17 GMT
I need to go back and read more of the text. I just read a few bits and was not sure whether I agreed or not, but I need to give it another try.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 12:39:40 GMT
A very well done evocative period piece.
Almost all the sections of the city mentioned have been completely rehabilitated since this piece was done,including the South Bronx.
Last year NYPD officers were involved in 105 shooting incidents,the lowest on record. Contrast that with 1972 when there were 2,510. I'd venture to say that is more than "somewhat improved".
I don't understand the statement,"New York has always had that reputation".
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Post by lagatta on Dec 5, 2009 14:49:02 GMT
casimira, I'd love to read more about the improvements to South Bronx - there has been so much in the world media about the "Second Harlem Renaissance", and little about this part of the Bronx. The last time I travelled through there (to see a friend living in the Italian neighbourhood in the North Bronx) it still looked rather dismal, though going through quickly I didn't see anything as bad as these photos.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 15:00:15 GMT
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Post by bjd on Dec 5, 2009 15:05:27 GMT
I had the impression (from peoples' clothes, etc) that most of those photographs are from the 1970s-80s. I believe that was a more difficult time in New York City than in the 1990s or later. But I'm no expert on the subject.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 15:10:25 GMT
The essay covers the 30 year period from 1965-1995. My point being, it is a 'period' piece so to speak.
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Post by bjd on Dec 5, 2009 15:14:42 GMT
Casimira, was the South Bronx a particularly tough area before? I stayed in the Bronx in 1971 when I went to visit a friend, but don't have a clue where it was. It didn't have apartment buildings though -- small one-family houses and mostly Jewish.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 15:31:53 GMT
Casimira, was the South Bronx a particularly tough area before? I stayed in the Bronx in 1971 when I went to visit a friend, but don't have a clue where it was. It didn't have apartment buildings though -- small one-family houses and mostly Jewish. Yes,notoriously so,and still has some very shaky areas don't get me wrong. It's a huge burrough,has more parkland then any of the 5 burroughs.Is home to the Bronx Zoo and the NY Botanical Garden and tons of other green spaces. Hunt's Point in the South Bronx is a huge,huge market with vendors of every conceivable item,fish,produce etc. To go there even in the early 90's though was a little scary until you got there. I always went with a friend who is a vendor there and knows generations of folks. Many ethnic enclaves or ghettos. Large Italian population and by far the best Italian food to be had. Little Italy is a joke,tourist trap in Manhattan. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 17:49:42 GMT
I drove through the South Bronx once while it was still in ruins. Definitely one of the creepiest things I have ever seen. Later, I saw the same thing in both Atlantic City and Philadephia.
As for the "reputation" of New York, an interesting thing in France is that it is Chicago that won the award, going back to Al Capone days. People in France know that there is nothing wrong with Chicago now (relatively speaking), but the expression "C'est Chicago" is still used to describe a dangerous place or situation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 18:01:24 GMT
It's ironic. I never, ever, felt safer living anywhere,including bucolic Bridgehampton,then I did when I lived in NYC or when I visit. "The Gangs of New York"? Please. Unfortunately, stereotyping is alive and well out there.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 18:15:47 GMT
And it will always be alive and well. Human minds have no time for nuance.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 18:23:57 GMT
 don't want to get brutal here  The guy mentions Detroit in the text and from what he says in his comparison to NYC, it's clearly dated information.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 18:25:49 GMT
okay, whatever casi.
I stand by what I said. Yes New York has a reputation, for being contradictory in many ways. If you don't agree with that, fine by me.
But your the expert, having lived there, so what do we know. And I'm sure you are completely correct in everything you say, as always.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 19:23:11 GMT
Don't start pulling your hair, ladies. New York does indeed have a reputation, and just like most cities of the world, it is maybe 30 years out of date. You can imagine what I think about many of the things I read about Paris, but hey, who cares? I bet the residents of London, Los Angeles, Beijing and Sydney feel the same.
Outsiders will never understand certain cities, and they will always arrive with preconceived ideas that are often terribly out of date. Stereotypes will persist forever, and nobody should believe that they are the one who can eliminate the stereotype forever.
In the British movie "In the Loop" there is a scene where an American general says that certain military situations are terrible. He says something along the line of "You go there and do what you have to do but you would never go back there if you didn't have to. It's like France."
French audiences laugh at that. They do not throw camembert or berets at the screen in disgust.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 5, 2009 19:28:11 GMT
Don't start pulling your hair, ladies. Would you make that kind of a comment if it were two men disagreeing? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 19:44:32 GMT
btw, my reference to movie 'The gangs of New York', was more tongue in cheek then anything else. Ofcourse no way does that resemble modern day New York. Still a good, entertaining movie though.  I'm sure it wasn't easy for the first Irish, Italian, Jewish etc. settlers that came to live in New York all those years ago. It was an interesting era for sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 19:49:46 GMT
Don't start pulling your hair, ladies. Would you make that kind of a comment if it were two men disagreeing? I might have said "Stop pissing on each other, guys!" Just don't ask what I might have said if a woman had disagreed with a man. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 0:39:48 GMT
For those interested in the South Bronx,here is a recent piece on the Hunt's Point Market from NPR. www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120846020My attempts to have a meaningful and intelligent discourse on the other material of which I do know a little, seems to have failed miserably. Personal assaults are not necessary and are quite immature. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 6:57:02 GMT
I would like to know what has become of those endless grids of streets with empty lots and ruins. Has new construction filled in those areas since the 1980's?  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 14:41:33 GMT
So hard to say without knowing precisely where photo was taken. Doesn't appear to be Harlem upon examining closely. This may be just the lure I need to try and get my native NYer friend to join up with us. Have been trying to recruit for eons. Knows every inch of NYC and has lived there for 62 years. The years 1978-89 saw Ed Koch as Mayor of NYC (3 terms). He was able to pull the city out of dire fiscal straights and saw to enormous reforms in housing.The following two mayors were very shaky IMHO until Guilliani. I should study more though,before making this harsh an assertion . |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 15:50:31 GMT
I was just looking at the Bronx on Google Earth and didn't see any vast empty zone like there used to be. However, I saw some blocks that seemed to be in ruins (the black roofs below with holes in them), yet right across the street on the right, there is clearly some new construction. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 15:56:17 GMT
Hmmm... I remembered Street View after that, and the buildings on the left are just traditional brownstones. On the right, the buildings are indeed new.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 16:44:36 GMT
When you look at a map of the Bronx you realize that it is larger then many small American cities.
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don't want to get brutal here 
