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Saigon
Apr 15, 2010 7:45:59 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 15, 2010 7:45:59 GMT
Saigon – everyone still calls it that – was once known as the Pearl of the Orient. In the 1930s it was the sophisticated capital of French Indochina, the Paris of the East. In the 1960s it was a turbulent melting pot of Vietnamese, Chinese and American influences, where intrigue played out against the backdrop of a country at war. Today, it is a city of 12 million people – and three million motorcycles – and the commercial capital of Vietnam, the place where everything happens first, where fashions come from and money is made. The Big Time. It sounded exciting. I had high expectations for the city. But as it turned out, I was disappointed. Saigon might have a glamorous past- and even a promising future – but its present is less glowing. It is still firmly in the ranks of Asia’s B-list cities; more a Jakarta than a Bangkok. I found it noisy and hectic, but somehow that “buzz” was missing – the fashions were drab and cheap looking, there were no supermarkets or convenience stores, restaurants all seemed to have the same menu, and there wasn’t much choice in the stores. There were upscale areas – the leafy generic-expat-area of Doi Khoi for instance – but they had nothing that couldn’t be bettered in Singapore or BKK or even Phnom Penh. And it was loudy, smoggy, and insanely busy. Saigon looks like this: This is not rush hour in the main street. Its every street, all the time. The motorcycle – xe om – is the lord of Saigon. They dominate the city and its culture, vastly outnumbering cars, and changing the way the traffic flows, making it much more fluid and spontaneous. There are no pedestrian crossings. The only way to get across a street is to walk, slowly and calmy, right into the oncoming traffic, and watch as it gracefully swirls around you. Its an unnerving experience, and perhaps the definitive Saigon moment - horns blaring, choking on pollution, walking calmy through the chaos.
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Saigon
Apr 15, 2010 7:57:46 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 15, 2010 7:57:46 GMT
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Saigon
Apr 16, 2010 3:34:38 GMT
Post by fumobici on Apr 16, 2010 3:34:38 GMT
Wow. That's about all I got.
The electrical wiring on the street is almost as amazing as the water park, and I'd be afraid of thinking I was having acid flashbacks at the water park.
Thanks, very cool.
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Saigon
Apr 16, 2010 11:17:11 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 16, 2010 11:17:11 GMT
Its ironic that the decade-long conflict the rest of the world knows as “Vietnam” is here known as “the American War”. Even now, the war still haunts Vietnam – anyone in their 40s or 50s lived through it first hand. Saigon is dotted with reminders of this savage and inexplicable past – the War Remnants Museum, (until recently called the Museum of American War Crimes), the soup shop where the Viet Cong kept their covert Ho Chi Minh headquarters right under the US army's nose, and numerous cemeteries and monuments. I skipped most of these, but I did make it to this building, the Reunification Palace: The Reunification Palace was originally built as the headquarters for the South Vietnam government and is widely considered a modern masterpiece- a model of a forward-looking sixties building for the tropics, open and airy and full of wide breezy spaces. It was here that the Viet Cong came first on their arrival in the city, driving through the gates in a tank. Soldiers ran out, bearing the Communist flag, to fly from the top balcony. The last President of South Vietnam, only 48 hours into the job after his predessecor quit, stayed behind to wait. As the Viet Cong burst in he said; “I have waited here to give you power”. The North Vetnamese officer replied “You are too late. You cannot give what you no longer have”. Today, the building is worth visiting as much for its sixties interiors as for those dramatic events – the whole place is decked out in official meeting rooms and offices that look like somethng out of a Thunderbirds movie or a Bond flick. It would be a great place to shoot a retro-futuristic swingin sixties/scifi click. On the roof stands a helicopter. This also echoes the Fall of Saigon, when the last Americans in the city rushed across town on hearing the secret signal, the radio weather report: “its 98 degrees and rising, followed by Bing Crosby singing “White Christmas”. You can imagine the terror on hearing the opening bars of that song, knowing it ws all over, the city was to fall, mothers gathering up their children in their arms, South Vietnamese desperately banging on the embassy walls begging to be evacuated, knowing they faced death if they stayed. And the last US soldiers in Vietnam flying off, just hours before the city fell, to aircraft carriers waiting in the South China Sea.
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Saigon
Apr 19, 2010 9:34:21 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 19, 2010 9:34:21 GMT
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Saigon
Apr 19, 2010 17:41:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2010 17:41:45 GMT
If you visit the Jade Emperor Temple the next time, it might help to reconcile you with Saigon. I finally retrieved all of the photo files from my broken computer (for a mere 700€) and will finally be able to post more threads about Saigon.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 4:16:05 GMT
Post by buncha on Apr 20, 2010 4:16:05 GMT
I've lurked for several months, but the post/impressions of Saigon prompt me to register to say that I've found Saigon to be a wonderful and exciting city with truly great food and (a block away from PNL) friendly, helpful people - without the fakery of Bangkok. One person sees one thing and another person sees something different.
When I returned to where I fought (countryside near Danang and Hue) I received a warm and hospitable welcome. My friend and I were treated to orange drinks, tea, and some kind of liquor.
The only place I felt was haunted by the war was Hue. There, a Vietnamese man whose family had suffered mightily used his ability to speak the language to trick me out of buying his tea - instead, he paid for my coffee before I knew what he was doing.
In general, I experience VN (3 visits since 2005) as magical, not in the same sense as Burma, but still magic in its own extraordinarily high energy way.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 5:02:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 5:02:54 GMT
On my trips to Vietnam, I have seen so many veterans drawn irresistably back to the places where they had been, plus a whole colony of ex-pat veterans living in Saigon, making it one of the few countries in the world where the 'losers' keep coming back. By the same token, I really did not see any veterans in north Vietnam.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 5:17:44 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Apr 20, 2010 5:17:44 GMT
Most interesting, Buncha. If you don't mind my asking, how was it that you came to visit Saigon the first time after the war? I've always been struck by how many US servicemen who served over there remember it with such affection.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 8:40:08 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 20, 2010 8:40:08 GMT
Buncha, I must agree that travel impressions are often totally subjective. Its all too easy to get a stomach bug or a black mood and blame it on the city you are in. I had awful experiences the first time I was in London, Bangkok and Buenos Aires and yet grew to enjoy every single one of them. And yet, I have to say, Saigon was one of my least favourite Asian cities.
I found it irritating; the constant buzzing of mosquito-like motorbikes all around, crowds, people selling stuff. And it lacked the compensations that make up for these things in other fast-developing capitals; it seemed dowdy and drab. Where, I wondered, were the fun fashions, cafes, clubs or fantastically outfitted pop stars than enliven Bangkok or Sao Paulo or Seoul?
Also, everyone in any kind of customer service role seemed to hate their job. I had consistently awful service in Vietnam - worse than China. I didn't find people particularly friendly (although elsewhere in Vietnam they had been charming). Saigon was one of the few places I experienced smiling at people in the street, only to be returned with a stony-faced stare.
I think I made two big mistakes. The first was staying in Pham Ngu Lao, the backpackers ghetto. I had enjoyed Bangkok's Khao San Road; being among the cosmopolitan riffraff, feeling the energy of youth and the babble of every European language. It seemed fun and invigorating. But Pham Ngu Lao just seemed ... drab. Everyone wearing the same Tshirts, buying the same bootleg CDs. Every restaurant had the same menu - exactly! - and the same sourfaced staff. Hotels were so similar I walked into the wrong one, mistaking the lobby for my own. And poor local people would hassle you and try to sell you crappy trinkets or photocopied Lonely Planets; again, five people would walk past selling exactly the same thing, pressing you and wheedling you to buy. I felt like saying "If you had something different to sell, and not the same brand of sunglasses I've seen 20 times today already, then maybe!" It was exhausting.
The second big mistake I made was one that I think is common to backpackers in notoriously inexpensive countries. Rather perversely, I became super-cheap. The irresistable lure of paying 70 cents for a bowl of pho or 7 US dollars for a room was too hard to resist. But then, when the hotel room was airless and mouldy, and the 40 cent internet cafe had the slowest connection known to man, and the seat on my 7 dollar all-day tour bus was uncomfortably broken, I would bitch and moan about it. What did I expect? My advice to myself if I went back to Saigon would be - don't be seduced by the cheapness of it, choose to cough up a little more because you get what you pay for, and I was consistently paying for crap .
So perhaps to a large degree my experiences in Saigon were my own fault. But I still have to say, of all the Asian cities I've been to, Saigon would be low on my list of priorities to re-visit.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 8:52:36 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 20, 2010 8:52:36 GMT
The great thing about Saigon though - the thing I loved - was its pure-hearted devotion to kitsch. The Buddhist waterpark was the most spectacular example (indeed, its hard to imagine a more spectacular example anywhere) but there were plenty of others; a bar overlooking the Hotel de Ville, with a large verandah covered in jungle potplants and statues of white horses and elephants. Shops crowded with statues of Communist heros, god, giraffes and Mickey Mouse(s). This was at Damsen Park - a socialist pleasureground set around a lake filled with bizarre statues, low-tech fun rides and giant statues of chickens made entirely of forks. There was also a mirrored room filled with pyramids of coloured ice, and posters for a horrific-looking circus: An upscale bar in the monied expat ghetto, decorated with faux-Communist-propaganda-manga: And the real thing on every other street corner:
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 10:37:40 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 10:37:40 GMT
Amazing, is all I can say. And you explained all so well ilbonito.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 12:11:26 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 12:11:26 GMT
The Vietnamese have a different mindset from the rest of Southeast Asia, and the Saigonese are different from the other Vietnamese who admire them and fear them. The people of Saigon are considered to be totally decadent after the American episode of the city, which never wore off. I got more than an eyeful on two nights out with a Buddhist monk that I met at a temple -- he took me all over the city on his motorbike and to a couple of extreme places that in my opinion he shouldn't even have known about.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 12:44:31 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 20, 2010 12:44:31 GMT
Details, please! Don't leave us hanging...
I found the people of Saigon...brusque.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 15:56:29 GMT
Post by Kimby on Apr 20, 2010 15:56:29 GMT
I have to say, Saigon was one of my least favourite Asian cities...I found it irritating; the constant buzzing of mosquito-like motorbikes all around, crowds, people selling stuff. And it lacked the compensations that make up for these things in other fast-developing capitals; it seemed dowdy and drab. Where, I wondered, were the fun fashions, cafes, clubs or fantastically outfitted pop stars than enliven Bangkok or Sao Paulo or Seoul?..I had enjoyed Bangkok's Khao San Road; being among the cosmopolitan riffraff, feeling the energy of youth and the babble of every European language. It seemed fun and invigorating...So perhaps to a large degree my experiences in Saigon were my own fault. But I still have to say, of all the Asian cities I've been to, Saigon would be low on my list of priorities to re-visit. I have to agree with you that your poor experience was your own fault. You went to Saigon looking for a repeat of some idealized generic international backpacker ghetto stay, and instead found...Saigon. Though it's been a long time since I was there (1993, shortly" before "normalization" of relations between US and VN), we were enchanted with Vietnam. Hanoi more so than Saigon, but enjoyed making comparisons between the two. Hanoi was all bikes, Saigon was all motorcycles. Hanoi was park-like, Saigon high-rises. We were struck by how enthusiastically the "communists" had taken to capitalism. And we enjoyed the odd rural scene right in the middle of the big city - roosters crowing in a tiny roof garden across the busy street from our high rise hotel, for example. Why would you go to Vietnam looking for "fun fashions, cafes, clubs or fantastically outfitted pop stars" anyway?
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 17:54:26 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 17:54:26 GMT
I'm with Kimby on this one.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 21:14:45 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 20, 2010 21:14:45 GMT
That's fair enough. As we said before, so much of this is purely subjective. How you see a place does depend a lot on what you have seen elsewhere, and what you expected to see.
Why would you go to Vietnam looking for "fun fashions, cafes, clubs or fantastically outfitted pop stars" anyway?
Because those are the things I love about Asia; its modern pop culture, its dynamism. Those are some of the things that make big cities exciting to me. And Saigon, after all, is a city of 12 million...
Has no-one else experienced particularly crappy service in Saigon, or Vietnam, though? I found it really appalling.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 21:36:56 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 21:36:56 GMT
I had no trouble with service in Saigon. It was usually friendly and sometimes 'indifferent' the same as in Paris. One of the things that I appreciate about the Vietnamese is that their smiles are 'honest' as opposed to the commercial smiles of the Thais or the Japanese. If they don't feel like smiling, they don't smile.
I remember one young girl at the juice bar on De Tham, just off Pham Ngu Lao, who had a nice but sad smile. She said that she was working in the juice bar to improve her English and French with the tourists, but after working there from 8am to 3pm, she went to work in a beauty parlour until almost midnight. She was exhausted but so bent on improving her standing in life, in the hope of.... what? Not just money, I hope.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 21:37:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 21:37:57 GMT
In other words, I don't feel that the people of these countries are there just for my entertainment.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 22:22:25 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 20, 2010 22:22:25 GMT
Well, obviously. Agreed. But if I can choose where to spend my time and money, I'm not going to choose a place I get scowled at and harrassed. And its not purely an economic issue, because I haven't had that experience in other developing Asian countries. I think it is largely cultural - as you say. I guess after all my years in Japan I'm a bit sensitive; I like the little niceties, a smile, a greeting, even if they are not particularly sincere.
I remember being shocked in the outer suburbs of Beijing, where I would ask for something in a shop with a smile, and the person working there would look pissed that they had to stand up and get it , and literally throw back my change. That was the kind of attitude I encountered everywhere in Pham Ngu Lao.
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Saigon
Apr 20, 2010 22:32:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 22:32:25 GMT
I'm loving the conversations and observations on this thread. It's really educational and interesting.
And we enjoyed the odd rural scene right in the middle of the big city - roosters crowing in a tiny roof garden across the busy street from our high rise hotel, for example.
That kind of scene seems more common in counties that have developed at a rapid rate, almost like some of the people haven't had time to catch up with the rest.
I remember one young girl at the juice bar on De Tham, just off Pham Ngu Lao, who had a nice but sad smile. She said that she was working in the juice bar to improve her English and French with the tourists, but after working there from 8am to 3pm, she went to work in a beauty parlour until almost midnight. She was exhausted but so bent on improving her standing in life, in the hope of.... what? Not just money, I hope.
My gosh that's a LOT of hours working. and I wonder if she did that 7 days a week? Quite sad that. I wonder what she is doing now?
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 1:02:25 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 21, 2010 1:02:25 GMT
And we enjoyed the odd rural scene right in the middle of the big city - roosters crowing in a tiny roof garden across the busy street from our high rise hotel, for example.
That kind of scene seems more common in counties that have developed at a rapid rate, almost like some of the people haven't had time to catch up with the rest.This is true even in Tokyo! There are suburbs 20 minutes from Shibuya where you still find rice paddies!!
PS - how do you quote people? I can't find the function so I've just been cutting,pasting and italicizing when I want to respond to someone.
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 1:54:11 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Apr 21, 2010 1:54:11 GMT
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 2:04:02 GMT
Post by Jazz on Apr 21, 2010 2:04:02 GMT
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 2:16:17 GMT
Post by cristina on Apr 21, 2010 2:16:17 GMT
S The motorcycle – xe om – is the lord of Saigon. They dominate the city and its culture, vastly outnumbering cars, and changing the way the traffic flows, making it much more fluid and spontaneous. There are no pedestrian crossings. The only way to get across a street is to walk, slowly and calmy, right into the oncoming traffic, and watch as it gracefully swirls around you. Its an unnerving experience, and perhaps the definitive Saigon moment - horns blaring, choking on pollution, walking calmy through the chaos. Ibonito, I have not been to Saigon, but both my bothers have. They each (independently) used almost the exact same words as you to describe the adventures of a pedestrian vs the motorcyclists. They may have added surreal as a modifier. My youngest brother died in Saigon about 10 years ago. My other brother, who went to arrange the funeral and transport of his remains, has nothing but wonderful things to say about the people there. He would like to go back under different circumstances. So would I, one day. Thanks for your photos and thoughts. Even if it isn't perfect, it still is a culture unto its own and worth experiencing.
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 4:01:58 GMT
Post by buncha on Apr 21, 2010 4:01:58 GMT
First, this site wouldn't let me have my desired name, bun cha (after a truly great food).
Bixaorellana, I went to Saigon for the first time after the war because during the war I was fighting up north in I Corps (from somewhere near Danang to the DMZ). Our first trip to Saigon was a stop on the journey from Phnom Penh to Hue. One of the things I first noticed on this site was your wonderful appreciation for travel in and of itself.
Kerouac (my wife and I had an espresso in Cafe Trieste earlier today), I'm glad you said 'losers' vs. just putting that word out there. It's a funny thing, we won every battle, they won the war, and we ALL won the peace.
It's my understanding that Germans visit Normandy, British visit India, southerners visit Gettysurg, northeners visit Manassas, Japanese visit Iwo, so on and so forth. Many French lived in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos until SEA fell to the communists and many still return. I don't think it's unusual for warriors to be drawn back to the battlefield.
Jon Swain said it very very well: "Whole generations of westerners who went out there as soldiers, doctors, planters, or journalists lost their hearts to these lands of the Mekong ... there are places that take over a man's soul."
And finally, yes, we all perceive things differently. To me (if I can stereotype to some extent), few people in the world have a greater sense of style than the Vietnamese - especially in Hue. But that's just my sense of the scene.
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 4:05:07 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 21, 2010 4:05:07 GMT
Kerouac is a bit intimidated by a new member of Anyport.
www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/webdes....1dbecb98b0.html OMG that was random!!! hahahaha...I'll take the compliment though I don't want to be ungracious, slagging off people's favourite spot. I understand that when you have a passion for a place you become intolerant to criticism. I feel an irrational little sting when people complain about how "awful" Bangkok is. Its important to be openminded and look for the positives. BUt at the same time you can't be a Pollyana, with everything always being wonderful. Its just not real. But that wasn't my intention with this thread; despite my misgivings I come to praise Saigon not to bury it! I've said my piece on what I disliked there and others have disagreed. Fair enough. How about we all post pictures/thoughts about what Saigon "means" for us? Is no-one going to comment on the freaking spectacular Buddhist waterpark? That was pretty much the unexpected and impressive highlight of my Southeastasian travels. I loved the wildly unexpected scale of it; just fabulous!
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 6:10:15 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 21, 2010 6:10:15 GMT
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 6:12:40 GMT
Post by ilbonito on Apr 21, 2010 6:12:40 GMT
Here are a few little interesting things I noticed in Vietnam, maybe someone with a better understanding of Vietnamese culture can explain them to me: - Especially in the countryside, many houses have small ceramic dog statues outside. They sit on top off the gateposts – one smiling yellow labrador on each side of the gate. Is this just to look cute, or does it have some deeper meaning? - Before Vietnam I had never seen a life-size giraffe statue in concrete . In Saigon, I saw three shops selling them in a row. Who buys? - Houses here are tall, narrow and colorful. Lots of them have an open, roofed terrace on the top floor, with a statue of Jesus or Kwan Yin (or a giraffe?) on it. Its a good look. - When Caodai followers die their bodies are transported in really elaborate golden-dragon-boat-shaped hearses. -When drivers pass each on the road (almost always done by driving directly towards each other, and then swirving at the last minute, “Chicken”-style,) they make a hand gesture , like a shaking open fist. What does that mean? - If sophisticated Bangkok is in love with (its projected image of) Japan, then Vietnam has a major crush on Korea. Korean brands are everywhere – Daewoo, Hyundai, Lotteria fastfood joints, Korean singers. But most notable is the number of shops with some hangul writing on them. Its truly astonishing. At first I thought they were aimed at Korean expats, but when I started to see the signs on busrides far out in downmarket suburbs, I came to realise that Korean in Vietnam is like English (often) in Japan. Its not designed to be read or understood by native speakers, it just looks “cool”. I think this is because while the Japan of Asia’s imagination is impossibly high-tech and unattainably stylish, Korea projects an image as much more “one of us”. Not as intimidating. There is a sense that not too long ago Korea was where Vietnam is now, they understand, and if we try really hard, within a generation or two we will be where they are today. -There are government anti-AIDS posters EVERYWHERE. Its getting a big push here. One or two of them actually have pictures of condoms, but mostly they follow the vague, Japanese public service announcement style of “childrens-drawing-of couple-holding-hands”, or “Little-girl-blowing-on-a-dandelion”.
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Saigon
Apr 21, 2010 6:21:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 6:21:27 GMT
Can you get AIDS from blowing on a dandelion? Yes, the water park is impressive, but I think we are already so used to Asian overkill that it is starting not to register anymore. I know at least in north Vietnam, property taxes are based on the width of the house, just like in old time Amsterdam -- so people build very very skinny but very deep houses.
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