Development in Cambodia, at what cost?
May 4, 2010 7:12:11 GMT
Post by hwinpp on May 4, 2010 7:12:11 GMT
Using the below dialogue as a start, what do others think of of the way third world countries in Asia (or Africa) are developing? Communist countries like China or Vietnam implementing free market economies or a country like Cambodia that emerged from their civil war just 12 years ago in 1998?
HWINPP: We'll have a couple of those ghost towns in Phnom Penh in the future. People have been evicted from prime city real estate for the last couple of years and construction has begun.
Bixa: Where do the people who were evicted go?
HWINPP: Mostly to spots a couple of km from the city.
They get a choice of compensation here. Either a smallish house or a cash sum, between 6 and 8k USD usually. That's not much, in spite of this being a dirt poor country. Usually the new place will be miles from where the evicted can make money, infrastructure will be terrible (no clean water, no electricity) and they might even get moved again if somebody deems the new building site too valuable.
Bixa: Sounds like a recipe for making more poverty. From things you've said here, it sounds as though the government is pretty corrupt. I assume developers and speculators can count on help from local government in getting their way?
HWINPP: Um, yes.
But we aren't the corruptest in Southeast Asia!
According to Transparency International Burma and Laos are more corrupt. And, I suspect, so are the Philippines and East Timor.
And in the 'free press' rating we're near the top of the ASEAN countries, probably only Singapore's press is freer.
On the other hand I do have a bit of sympathy for the small scale corruption and I understand why it's so difficult for the government to get rid of the big corruption issues. I'll explain if you're interested.
. . .
No. 1 reason for the petty corruption is of course low pay for government employees. Policemen, soldiers, teachers get 40USD per month. So policemen set up roadblocks and 'fine' people. Max. fine is 2.50USD, regardless of whether you've run a red light, aren't wearing a helmet on a motorbike or don't have a driving license. Soldiers moonlight as bodyguards. You speak to their superiors and they arrange it. They keep the soldier's paycheck, the soldier lives off the money you pay him, it has to be higher than his pay of course. Depending on his rank and what unit he's serving in, the duties are done well or badly. Teachers charge the children in their classes 0.25USD per day if they want to take part in classes, I think something like 7USD if you want to take a government exam.
I've only paid off cops and never been confronted with other forms of corruption. I pay the correct amount for electricity, water and rubbish disposal.
Another form of corruption, on a much, much bigger scale, is the corruption found in the border provinces bordering on Thailand. These areas were the last Khmer Rouge occupied areas. Part of the deals with the central government the KR made regarding their 'surrender', concerned the future running of those provinces. Now, just 12 years after the civil war ended, the governors of all those provinces are still old KR cadres. They do the illegal logging, illegal taxing, control all prices of goods in all markets, have transportation monopolies, etc., etc. There's nothing anybody can do about it. Least of all the government.
The third big block of corruption isn't really corruption at all. It's 'paying off'. This concerns the logging in the eastern provinces, bordering Vietnam. The Vietnamese got rid of the KR (to a certain extent) and of course they didn't do that for free. For them it's easy to get huge land swathes as social land concessions. First they log it, then they plant some mono culture on it, e.g. oil palm or rubber. They get 99 year leases. The most recent big repayment was the government's signing off of Phu Quoc Island in 2005, it's Cambodia's largest island, about 30km off the coast between the port of Sihanoukville and Kep.
Bixa: Thanks for that very complete answer, HW. It's a real insight into how corruption grows down from the top and up from the bottom.
The part about the old Khmer Rouge cadres still officially running the border provinces is not only shocking, it's disgusting, as are the logging concessions. It's as though the poor country is being held down and repeatedly raped.
HWINPP: Quite right.
The reason the government doesn't want to do anything about it is that they fear the country might descend into civil war again.
Most KR units were just put into new uniforms in '98, but they stayed together as units and mostly even kept their commanders. So you've got largish bodies of armed men who'll sooner follow their local commanders than the oaths they swore on the government.
The provinces of Pailin and Koh Kong, in the west of the country are doing very well because the local governors are stealing all the revenue and making up their own laws. The city of Pailin even prides itself on being the most 'disciplined' city in Cambodia! That's where all the people lived that are now being held so that they can be put on trial. They were the little kings and queens (one of them is a lady, Ieng Thirith, wife of Ieng Sary) of that province.
That said of course certain members of the government aren't innocent either. But I think there's an attempt to clean up the place. The PM is getting old, he'll have another 10 years, and then what?
Bixa: Was there no outcry in '98, or were the populace just happy to have less disruption and were used to things the way they were? And what about the people of Pailin and Koh Kong -- are there no demonstations or at least editorial complaints?
HWINPP: No, after more than 30 years of war everybody was happy that the KR were willing to put down their arms. It's just that nothing comes for free in life. The KR worked out the conditions of their surrender just like the Vietnamese worked out the conditions of their leaving the country.
And undeniably things are getting better but there's always some oddball little party that brings up these old ghosts, the press covers it and speculation and rumours start anew.
One thing completely new for me was that you can't send SMS at election time. Too many rumours get spread that way.
Bixa: Sounds as though there's no hope for stopping the environmental devastation before it's too late. Probably too many people are profiting, plus there are all the jobs involved.
Have you seen general improvement since you've lived there? I'm currently reading the history of Oaxaca, & stuff that happened 35 years ago is similar to news stories in the recent past. The corruption has worked too well for some factions for too long, and they're not willing to give it up
HWINPP: The improvements I've seen are mainly infrastructural improvements, roads, rail, electricity and water grid, schools.
Also the PM looks like he's following through on his promises to stop illegal logging (in the provinces he controls), stop the impunity with which powerful people are treated and stop the nepotism. For some of course he's not doing it fast enough but I think for a third worls country it's quite ok.
One thing one must realize is that prior to the mayhem of civil war and genocide and more civil war the people weren't free either. While many think of the ex- king's reign benevolently (none more so than he himself), it clearly was a feudal state with no freedom at all for the people. So we don't have structural, age old corruption here.
HWINPP: We'll have a couple of those ghost towns in Phnom Penh in the future. People have been evicted from prime city real estate for the last couple of years and construction has begun.
Bixa: Where do the people who were evicted go?
HWINPP: Mostly to spots a couple of km from the city.
They get a choice of compensation here. Either a smallish house or a cash sum, between 6 and 8k USD usually. That's not much, in spite of this being a dirt poor country. Usually the new place will be miles from where the evicted can make money, infrastructure will be terrible (no clean water, no electricity) and they might even get moved again if somebody deems the new building site too valuable.
Bixa: Sounds like a recipe for making more poverty. From things you've said here, it sounds as though the government is pretty corrupt. I assume developers and speculators can count on help from local government in getting their way?
HWINPP: Um, yes.
But we aren't the corruptest in Southeast Asia!
According to Transparency International Burma and Laos are more corrupt. And, I suspect, so are the Philippines and East Timor.
And in the 'free press' rating we're near the top of the ASEAN countries, probably only Singapore's press is freer.
On the other hand I do have a bit of sympathy for the small scale corruption and I understand why it's so difficult for the government to get rid of the big corruption issues. I'll explain if you're interested.
. . .
No. 1 reason for the petty corruption is of course low pay for government employees. Policemen, soldiers, teachers get 40USD per month. So policemen set up roadblocks and 'fine' people. Max. fine is 2.50USD, regardless of whether you've run a red light, aren't wearing a helmet on a motorbike or don't have a driving license. Soldiers moonlight as bodyguards. You speak to their superiors and they arrange it. They keep the soldier's paycheck, the soldier lives off the money you pay him, it has to be higher than his pay of course. Depending on his rank and what unit he's serving in, the duties are done well or badly. Teachers charge the children in their classes 0.25USD per day if they want to take part in classes, I think something like 7USD if you want to take a government exam.
I've only paid off cops and never been confronted with other forms of corruption. I pay the correct amount for electricity, water and rubbish disposal.
Another form of corruption, on a much, much bigger scale, is the corruption found in the border provinces bordering on Thailand. These areas were the last Khmer Rouge occupied areas. Part of the deals with the central government the KR made regarding their 'surrender', concerned the future running of those provinces. Now, just 12 years after the civil war ended, the governors of all those provinces are still old KR cadres. They do the illegal logging, illegal taxing, control all prices of goods in all markets, have transportation monopolies, etc., etc. There's nothing anybody can do about it. Least of all the government.
The third big block of corruption isn't really corruption at all. It's 'paying off'. This concerns the logging in the eastern provinces, bordering Vietnam. The Vietnamese got rid of the KR (to a certain extent) and of course they didn't do that for free. For them it's easy to get huge land swathes as social land concessions. First they log it, then they plant some mono culture on it, e.g. oil palm or rubber. They get 99 year leases. The most recent big repayment was the government's signing off of Phu Quoc Island in 2005, it's Cambodia's largest island, about 30km off the coast between the port of Sihanoukville and Kep.
Bixa: Thanks for that very complete answer, HW. It's a real insight into how corruption grows down from the top and up from the bottom.
The part about the old Khmer Rouge cadres still officially running the border provinces is not only shocking, it's disgusting, as are the logging concessions. It's as though the poor country is being held down and repeatedly raped.
HWINPP: Quite right.
The reason the government doesn't want to do anything about it is that they fear the country might descend into civil war again.
Most KR units were just put into new uniforms in '98, but they stayed together as units and mostly even kept their commanders. So you've got largish bodies of armed men who'll sooner follow their local commanders than the oaths they swore on the government.
The provinces of Pailin and Koh Kong, in the west of the country are doing very well because the local governors are stealing all the revenue and making up their own laws. The city of Pailin even prides itself on being the most 'disciplined' city in Cambodia! That's where all the people lived that are now being held so that they can be put on trial. They were the little kings and queens (one of them is a lady, Ieng Thirith, wife of Ieng Sary) of that province.
That said of course certain members of the government aren't innocent either. But I think there's an attempt to clean up the place. The PM is getting old, he'll have another 10 years, and then what?
Bixa: Was there no outcry in '98, or were the populace just happy to have less disruption and were used to things the way they were? And what about the people of Pailin and Koh Kong -- are there no demonstations or at least editorial complaints?
HWINPP: No, after more than 30 years of war everybody was happy that the KR were willing to put down their arms. It's just that nothing comes for free in life. The KR worked out the conditions of their surrender just like the Vietnamese worked out the conditions of their leaving the country.
And undeniably things are getting better but there's always some oddball little party that brings up these old ghosts, the press covers it and speculation and rumours start anew.
One thing completely new for me was that you can't send SMS at election time. Too many rumours get spread that way.
Bixa: Sounds as though there's no hope for stopping the environmental devastation before it's too late. Probably too many people are profiting, plus there are all the jobs involved.
Have you seen general improvement since you've lived there? I'm currently reading the history of Oaxaca, & stuff that happened 35 years ago is similar to news stories in the recent past. The corruption has worked too well for some factions for too long, and they're not willing to give it up
HWINPP: The improvements I've seen are mainly infrastructural improvements, roads, rail, electricity and water grid, schools.
Also the PM looks like he's following through on his promises to stop illegal logging (in the provinces he controls), stop the impunity with which powerful people are treated and stop the nepotism. For some of course he's not doing it fast enough but I think for a third worls country it's quite ok.
One thing one must realize is that prior to the mayhem of civil war and genocide and more civil war the people weren't free either. While many think of the ex- king's reign benevolently (none more so than he himself), it clearly was a feudal state with no freedom at all for the people. So we don't have structural, age old corruption here.