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Post by hwinpp on May 8, 2010 3:26:58 GMT
I think the Greeks did pay attention.
They just worked around it, hoping all would go well...
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Post by gertie on May 8, 2010 5:30:00 GMT
Hm maybe
Great pictures, that campy grave with the vultures is pretty amazing.
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Post by ilbonito on May 8, 2010 6:20:11 GMT
I never knew much about Evita Peron. And I cared even less. I associated her distastefully with Madonna's over-acting, and cheesy musicals, and vague impressions of huge hysterical crowds. But what it was that they were so hysterical about I never quite knew. Even when I went to Argentina the first time, I did the cursory visit to her grave (well, I went to the cemetery. I actually couldn't find her mausoleum) and left it at that. The subject never held much interest for me until I read a great book by British author Miranda France, called "Bad Times in Buenos Aires" Despite the awful title which makes it sound like some flimsy chick-lit (its not), its a beautifully written and insightful book about what makes the city tick. The focus of the book is on the day-to-day struggle of the city's inhabitants in the face of a crumbling economy and indifferent bureaucracy. It also touches on, hauntingly, the fallout from Argentina "lost Years - the "dirty war" of the 1970s when as in Chile and Brazil, the military took the reins of power and dissidents started to disappearE And of course, there is a chapter on the woman who still towers bafflingly over Argentina, Evita. I had pictured her vaguely as some kind of glamorous camp icon, but the more I read the more I saw how wrong I had been. She wasn't Cher. She was Stalin. My wholly subjective take on the subject (and obviously, there are many people better informed) is that the fascination with Evita stems from an understanding, implicit or otherwise, that there was something deeply wrong with the woman. And it was precisely this dark side that gave her her huge, and otherwise inexplicable, hold on the hearts of millions. Hers was a cult of personality with few parallels. Even without the apparatus of the state, without propaganda or military support and before her husband gained power, she had turned herself into a super-human figure charged with hysterical emotion. She was, I think, a sociopath. Someone with immense charm and charisma who had learned early how to manipulate people. She wielded herself as a weapon. After all, the fifth illegitimate child of a single mother, she had to learn young how to survive. And all of her immense charm was deployed with an iron will, to meet her objectives. She would crush anyone in her way. Evita was a one-woman army, at war with the world. She burned, not just with ambition, but with hatred; hatred for the cruelty of the society that had marginalised her and hatred most of all, of its upper classes. At 15 she ran away to the big city to become a radio star, and then the wife of then-opposition leader and later president Peron. The country's elite despised her; first as a jumped-up tramp, but later as a very real threat. Evita loved dressing up in designer gowns and flaunting the latest fashions, but she didn’t aspire to join the upper classes. She aspired to crush them. Her message was clear: "Yes, I was a poor, illegitimate country girl (and quite possibly a prositute). But why can't I enjoy the finer things in life? Why aren't I entitled to them?EAnd always with the clear but unspoken subtext "and why are you?E The poor loved her, the rich hated her. She split the country right down the middle. At one speech, from the balcony of the famous Pink HouseEof the Argentine president, painted with pigsEblood, she yelled to her howling supporters "Do you want to burn down the (privileged) Northern suburbs? If you want it, I will be your torch!" taunting her enemies with a show of hysterical support. I can see now why Madonna would want to play Evita. Hell, why she would want to be Evita. The same single-minded, ruthlessness that turned an average-looking girl with an average voice into a global icon burned inside Evita, but even more fiercely. She must be one of the few people who would be able to stare down Madonna or beat her in a battle of wills. The singer would no doubt admire the woman's incredible strength and sacrifice, greater even than her own. Evita would change Argentina, or die trying. In the end, she did both. In 1952, after being nominated for the Vice Presidency ( unheard of for a woman at the time), Evita gave her famous Don't Cry For MeEspeech from the balcony of the Pink House, announcing her resignation. She had cancer, and would not live long. She didn't have the strength anymore. In France's book, the author discusses the theory that in fact Evita had known of her cancer for some time and refused early treatment. Ever willing to exploit an opportunity, she knew her message would have more impact as a matyr, and she was willing to sacrifice even that Eever herself Eto have it heard. At the age of 33 (the same age Jesus Christ dies), Evita passed away. At her funeral, half a million people wept and eight were themselves crushed to death in the crowd. Graffiti sprang up overnight all over the city: "Long Live Cancer" from her opponents and the simple, haunting "Evita Lives!" from her admirers, which would re-appear again and again, for decades, all over the metropolis. Even now, fifity years later, Evita towers over Argentina. Her face is plastered on posters, plays about her are still being written. At her museum, her deathmask stares out into a mirrored room, reflected on and on and on, just Evita forever. Thousands visit her grave. Millions still profess their love for her. The Vatican receives floods of mail, still, calling for the fiercely anti-Catholic firebrand to be made a saint. Her name and image tower over the nation's politics, far overshadowing even her husband's. And so the bloodcurdling prophecy she gave on her deathbead, burning still with singleminded obsession, has eerily come to pass: "I shall return, and be millions!"
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Post by ilbonito on May 8, 2010 6:28:23 GMT
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Post by bjd on May 8, 2010 9:14:24 GMT
Ilbonito, you might be interested in a novel by Philip Kerr -- he is a Scot who writes detective novels, a series of which take place in 1930s-40s Berlin, with a recurring "hero". One of the books takes place in Argentina after the war and his protagonist meets Evita. He paints her as being egocentric and tough as nails. As you say, she has remained popular. The popular/populist heroes of Argentina: Peron, Eva Peron and Maradona I am not an economist, but from the little I know, I don't think the crises in Greece and Argentina were the same. Argentina suffered from terrible mismanagement by the military dictatorship, then had terrible inflation in the 1980s, and "shock therapy" and privatization of everything in the 1990s under Menem. It would have been enough to sink any economy, but was disastrous for one based on agricultural exports like Argentina's. On top of which, with the Arg peso tied to the US dollar, it made exports expensive. The result of course was a total collapse. There are a few good documentaries about it all, but I can't remember the names. I'll have a look. Meanwhile
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Post by lola on May 8, 2010 14:29:30 GMT
Whoa, ilbonito. This knocks me out.
I had no idea about Evita. Beauty, youth, intelligence and sociopathic personality could do quite a lot given the chance, couldn't they?
PS: is Mujeres en el Baño a movie? Great poster.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 14:41:33 GMT
She was, I think, a sociopath. Someone with immense charm and charisma who had learned early how to manipulate people. She wielded herself as a weapon. After all, the fifth illegitimate child of a single mother, she had to learn young how to survive. And all of her immense charm was deployed with an iron will, to meet her objectives. She would crush anyone in her way. Evita was a one-woman army, at war with the world. She burned, not just with ambition, but with hatred; hatred for the cruelty of the society that had marginalised her and hatred most of all, of its upper classes.
I can see now why Madonna would want to play Evita. Hell, why she would want to be Evita. The same single-minded, ruthlessness that turned an average-looking girl with an average voice into a global icon burned inside Evita, but even more fiercely. She must be one of the few people who would be able to stare down Madonna or beat her in a battle of wills. The singer would no doubt admire the woman's incredible strength and sacrifice, greater even than her own. Evita would change Argentina, or die trying.
Great insight into who Eva Peron really was. I like your take on that. I can't help but admire her. I saw a documentary about her a while back and found it fascinating.
I know I've said this before, but I'm savouring every word. You really do have a way of explaining things that is interesting and educational, ilbonito.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 8, 2010 14:44:16 GMT
I am so enjoying and excited by this thread that last night I wrote a lengthy reply, replete with comments, questions, and even a rambling anecdote about the anteater ..... all of which got flushed away when my computer suddenly turned on me.
Ilbonito, as always your comments are insightful as well as fun, and to have Bjd contributing expanded the thread wonderfully.
Bjd, what is that impressive "curly" building -- the first one you posted? And speaking of curly, that Chinese-painting flowering branch in front of the stately building is an outstanding photo, Ilbonito -- love it!
A last comment about buildings -- Buenos Aires certainly seems to have cornered the market on attenuated towers topped by domes, uh, elevated domes? .... is there even an architectural term for that?
The zoo doesn't seem all that OTT considering when it was built. Of course, I am a person who's easily charmed by cheesy, if properly presented. And the cemetery is wonderful. I come from a state where many cemeteries are above ground because of expediency, so cities of the dead look better to me. The green shade and layout of the one shown seems quite lovely, especially since it's in the middle of downtown.
Is the economic museum very publicized? It's certainly not a classic guide-book museum, but a fascinating addition to your presentation of Buenos Aires. Your comments were much appreciated, as are Bjd's. (trivia quibble -- they used the wrong little statues. St. Joseph the Worker is always shown with the tools of his trade)
Interesting to hear that the cult of Evita is still thriving, and your "sociopath" speculation could probably be expanded into an entire book about the public and its idols.
The linked Ilbonito/Bjd images of modern Buenos Aires are rather bracing after wallowing in the glamor of the older architecture and green spaces. "Women on the John" -- eh?
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Post by bjd on May 8, 2010 14:58:47 GMT
Bixa, those "curly" and other buildings are apartment buildings, and I would think also contain some offices. More of them:
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Post by bjd on May 8, 2010 15:11:28 GMT
Grumble -- my login expired as I hit the post button. So here I go again. This is avenida 9 de julio, supposedly the widest street in the world And this is a poorer area called Once, where there is a train station for commuter trains, and a "garment district" full of shops selling cheap clothing And a memorial to the kids who died in a fire in a discotheque called Cromagnon at Christmas 2005
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Post by bjd on May 8, 2010 15:24:02 GMT
Like everywhere else in S America, there are big contrasts between the rich and poor. Of course, we did not go walk around in the slums, the Villas Ilbonito mentions. But even La Boca, with its one touristy street, is considered unsafe as soon as you leave that street, which is not too interesting in my opinion. We did wander elsewhere, but mostly kept the camera in a plastic bag, and anyway, there is not much to photograph. But La Boca is in all the guidebooks for the street called Caminito, where people sell "art" and souvenirs. This is one of the oldest neighbourhoods of BsAs, and because it was poor and used to flood, the sidewalks are high and you spend your time going up and down steps. And when you leave the Caminito, it looks rather like this, at least the colourful streets. There are others that are rattier. And people sell food and drinks on the street
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Post by lola on May 8, 2010 15:41:47 GMT
So cool, bjd. Thanks.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 8, 2010 19:43:05 GMT
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Post by bjd on May 8, 2010 20:04:19 GMT
I'll end with a few more then. It's a noisy city -- there are many narrow streets with a lot of traffic. And the noise gets trapped because the buildings tend to have several floors. This is a fairly well-off area in the centre called Barrio Norte And this is another called Recoleta, where that cemetery is. You can tell the wealthy neighbourhoods because there are trees and plants and the sidewalks are in good condition. As you see here, appearance is important in BsAs.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 21:07:02 GMT
The more I see of Buenos Aires, the less I can understand the idea that Sao Paolo is more 'over the top'. All of these photos are amazing. I certainly do not see the idea that BA is living in the past unless one believes that the old buildings should be torn down to make way for new things.
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Post by ilbonito on May 9, 2010 0:49:07 GMT
lola - I think "Women on the toilet" was a stage show. The poster was on the main theatre street. bixa - the museum is in the basement of the university's economic faculty. It was in my guidebook, although when I was there I was the only visitor.... Kerouac2 - its hard to explain, or to show in pictures, but lively as the city undoubtedly is it does have a very dark melancholic feel - at least to me. There is a real feeling of a yearning for times past. What other country is still so psychologically dominated bya mother figure who passed away sixty years ago? Its a bit "Norman Bates"! No wonder the citizens of BA are the most psychoanalysed in the world After 5 days in Buenos Aires, it was time to say goodbye to South America and head home. I had imagined the city to be a relaxed winding-down after the excitement of Brazil, but as it turned out, it captured my imagination all over again. The more I explored the more I found. On my last day I was torn between a famous street market in the neighborhood of San Telmo, a gaucho cowboy fair on the cityfs outskirts, and a gparrot marketf for pet birds in a slummy neighborhood called Nueva Pompeya. I wished I had more time to do them all, and in the end opted for none, and went to lie in a park. But at the same time, I felt relieved. I was ready to go. Something about the city, even its beautiful, fading history seemed oppressive: too much of it, too many ghosts. In the end my favorite monument in this city of monuments was its newest and most hopeful one; a giant metallic flower that opens each day at dawn in a reflecting pool, and closes again at dusk. It was a reassuring symbol of certainty and constancy in this city of dramatic ups and downs, a city I had come to really enjoy, but was glad to be able leave.
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Post by bjd on May 9, 2010 7:20:49 GMT
Funny, Ilbonito. We didn't bother going to see that flower at all. I saw some pictures and didn't find it interesting. We did go to a few parks to walk around and relax. As you said, everyone feels places differently, but I didn't find that oppressive feeling of history at all. On the contrary, we saw demonstrations of piqueteros -- unemployed people lighting fires and banging drums in front of the Congress building, young people in the park dancing, street musicians playing tango of course, but that was only in the area where there are tourists. I know that they have a huge number of psychiatrists, but that is a cultural thing -- like the States has a lot of plastic surgeons. There are lots of good Argentine movies being made -- I often feel that's the sign of a society that is moving and changing. And despite the cartoneros, who you see all over as soon as it gets dark, and the rising crime rate (according to Argie friends), I find it a lively place. Here is the street market you didn't go to in San Telmo. This is on Plaza Dorrego The tango dancers. Actually, I had seen this same guy 2 years earlier and on posters too. And these too
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Post by bjd on May 9, 2010 7:28:16 GMT
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Post by bjd on May 9, 2010 7:42:52 GMT
And in a nice area called Palermo, there are parks, like this Parque Las Heras. Note that everybody has a thermos of hot water for their mate. The botanical garden There are chess and card players Women exercising and bars
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Post by bixaorellana on May 10, 2010 0:10:52 GMT
Bjd, this is a wonderful vibrant look at something I did not suspect ~~ lots and lots of people outside really enjoying themselves. Was this pretty standard, or mostly on weekends? I loved the echoes of La Grande Jatte[/img] in the first park picture, and the detail that Argentineans indeed enjoy their maté. In the second San Telmo photo, do you have any idea what those bundles are the guy on the left is selling? And a whole street orchestra, including a piano -- amazing! Four concertinas (or accordions?) -- what's that about? Whatever, it's totally charming.
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Post by hwinpp on May 10, 2010 4:05:57 GMT
I think they're 'bandoneons'. One of the classical tango instruments.
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Post by bjd on May 10, 2010 7:04:23 GMT
hwinpp is right -- those are bandoneons, which give tango music that specific sound. The first time I was in BsAs, I heard an old man on a street near a church playing Bach on a bandoneon. It was beautiful.
Bixa, those bundles are pencils. People are out every day, but that San Telmo market is held on Sundays. The rest of the week is quieter. I don't remember too well, but think the pics from the park with the men playing checkers and stuff were taken during the week. The other park picture was probably on a Saturday. Obviously people do work or go to school, so when the weather is nice, they are out more on weekends. It's only tourists who can wander whenever they like.
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Post by bjd on May 10, 2010 7:15:57 GMT
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Post by ilbonito on May 10, 2010 9:51:51 GMT
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Post by lagatta on May 10, 2010 11:21:37 GMT
Well of course a lot of those men playing cards or chess are pensioners. Some lucky people even have pensions from Italy or Spain, worth more than Argentine pesos these days.
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