The Case of The Mysterious Baskets

[Don Cuevas]

continued from a thread from On The Menu, subject: What's for breakfast?
preview.tinyurl.com/basketsforbreakfasts

I think we are on to something here, Bixa.

First, it's possible that Julio told me a taxcal was a basket of approximately 1 kilogram capacity, and the chiquihuite was of approximately 3 kilos cap.
But now, fom the Diccionario* it appears that the two words are closely linked, and perhaps branched from the same roots. I am not a linguist (insert cunning pasta joke here.) but just a casual observer and reporter.

* I was able to open that Diccionario in Firefox without problems, although the results appear a bit slowly.

Can we call in VinnyD?

So, on Tuesday, Dona Cuevas and I will go with Doña Chucha to the molino de nixtamal nearby, and see how the treated maíz is ground. I hope to take photos, and to garner more info in the Case of the Mysterious Baskets. Basket Case, for short.

Guangoches, next?

[bixaorellana]

If you don't mind, I'm backing this up a little bit since your link above takes us to a second page.

The pertinent bits of the original discussion:

Don Cuevas wrote:
The finished tortillas go into a small woven basket, whose local name I forget.

Bixaorellana wrote:
Don Cuevas, the basket is a tenate.

Don Cuevas wrote:
Could be, but I'll verify it locally, as the Purhépecha language is different from Zapoteca.

Bixaorellana wrote:
I seriously doubt that word is Zapotec, as it's used in most of Mexico, thus far more likely to have Náhuatl roots.

I was going to suggest that you look in your local library for the Diccionario de Mexicanismos. However, when I checked the title online, I got this wonderful surprise:
www.scribd.com/doc/18649748/Diccionario-de-Mexicanismos

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don Cuevas wrote:
I consulted with Julio ... about the names of the woven containers in question. He told me that locally, the small, vertical basket for storing tortillas as they come off the comal is taxcal. It is short, with a capacity of about 1 liter. (The one at María's seemed larger to me. I recall now that's probably the word she used, but I'll recheck when I have a chance.)

A taller version of the basket/container, which I've not seen an example, is a chiquihuite, capacity 3 liters.

Finally, to attempt to achieve closure on this question, I asked Julio what is a tenate.

He said it's a guaje, or gourd, but also used metaphorically to mean a man's testicles. Really, I am not making this up.

Meanwhile, I find that in the state of Puebla, at least, a tenate is, indeed a carrying basket, as in this beautiful example ----->

<------ This example of a chiquihuite filled with frijól looks very much like the basket María was using.

I haven't found an Internet or Google result for "taxcal", but that suggests it's just a local usage.
Finally, for now, Marías' calling a chiquihuite a taxcal/tenate may just be vernacular, that is to say, imprecise usage. But I would never dare to correct her.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bixaorella wrote:
Hmmm. This is interesting on a number of different levels. That second photo is a classic tenate, albeit a teeny one. And yes, the ones used around here for tortillas as they come off the comal are certainly larger than a one-liter capacity.

It's interesting that people in your area don't use the Náhuatl word, since one of the significant facts about the Purépecha is their long and successful resistance to the Aztecs. In fact, their use of tenate seems more to have come in from Mexican Spanish. Thus, María's usage can't be said to be imprecise.

Okay -- wrote the above, then went and looked up taxcal in the Dic.deMex., which knocked my theory of Michoacano rejection of Náhuatl into a cocked sombrero. It says:

taxcal. (Probablemente de náhuatl tlaxcualchiquihuitl, de tlaxcalli 'tortilla de maíz' + chiquihuitl 'cesto, canasta, chiquihuite'.) m. Caja, cesto, o huacal para guardar tortillas de maíz.

I looked up huacal, too: basket of woven strips of wood.
And guaje/huaje seems to be reserved here for the edible pods of the guajal -- a type of acacia from which purportedly came the name "Oaxaca".

I'm waiting for someone to chase us over to Where Words Collide.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thus ends the original discussion, in answer to which is Don Cuevas' OP above.

[bixaorellana]

It would indeed be helpful and welcome to have some of the zealous tt researchers help us out here.

Not only do we have the Mexican version of gunny sack/croker sack/burlap bag/etc. going on here, but there are additional linguistic paths to be followed. One of them is whether the Náhuatl words entered the vocabulary of otherwise Purépecha, Zapotec, Mixtec, etc. peoples directly, or as part of Spanish in its role of lingua franca.

[Don Cuevas]

(My Internet connection works only sporadically in the daytime; thus the delay between replies.)

About guangoche: the first time I heard the word was in a notable bakery, El Horno de Los Ortiz, in Morelia. They make a puff pastry square, filled with a sweet cheese mixture, tied artstically with binder twine (?) and resembling a closed, real guangoche.

It wasn't until I was living in "Los Equis" that I saw a real one. Our landlords use it when they are stripping dried corn from the cobs, among other tasks, I'm certain. It is made of coarsely woven natural straw like material, with woven rope handles, one at each corner. Like many rural implements of work made of natural materials, it is a thing of beauty. I don't seem to have a good photo of that yet.

[bixaorellana]

Here we go again. I think that strictly speaking, un guangoche, aka ayate, would be a length of burlap-type cloth woven from sisal. But it must have a further meaning once it's altered for a specific use.

[Don Cuevas]

Is there anyone else besides us on this thread, Bixa?

[bixaorellana]

Nope. As far as I know, this forum only has two people with any knowledge or interest in Mexican Spanish. However, there are quite a few people who speak multiple languages & who have an interest in language in general.

I figure if we just keep going, we might attract some interesting segues, or that you might leave tortilla crumbs to lure cognoscenti from other locations into our linguistic lair.

[cristina]

I have nothing of serious value to add other than to comment that the baskets pictured are quite lovely. My knowledge of Mexican Spanish is zero - at least from a dialectic or evolutionary perspective.

Oh, and I just wanted to make sure that you knew you were not alone in this thread. Just call me your chaperon (carabina?).

[bixaorellana]

¿Ves? ¿Ves, Don Cuevas? ¡Si lo construyes, ellos vendrán! ;D

Yaaaay ~~ la querida Cristina is gonna be our carbina!

[Don Cuevas]

¿At our age, we need a chaperone?

[Don Cuevas]

We went to the molino this morning, because, as I understand it, it could not operate as there was no electricity in that sector of our community. A house up the highway or, at least, its garage, had burned, destroying the power pole (I assume). Our street was not affected by the blackout.

Well, there's always Saturday. Later, we'll find out how the family that had the fire is faring and bring them some food.

[bjd]

Yo no hablo castellano mexicano y tampoco tengo cestas.

[bixaorellana]

Atesta Bjd que no tiene cesta.

Strictly speaking, should that be no tenga, since we only have her word for it?

[bjd]

En realidad, tengo un cesto bastante grande (o una canasta dixit Wordreference.com) para ir al mercado pero no un pequeno como los de eso discusion.

[onlymark]

ما تتحدث عنه؟

[bixaorellana]

Does Mark have a ?

[onlymark]

Have I got a cartouche?

[bjd]

It must be some Mexican Mystery Box that you can only identify if you live in Mexico.

[bixaorellana]

It's supposed to be a hieroglyph that represents the sound for C/K. It's a basket.

There's a salve you can buy if you have a cartouche.

[Don Cuevas]

Off topic!!